Michael Arkush, Author of "Golf 100"
The focal point of this podcast episode is the engaging discussion surrounding Michael Arkush's recently published work, "The Golf 100: A Spirited Ranking of Golf's Greatest Players of All Time." In this episode, we delve into the intricate criteria Arkush employed to rank legendary golfers, thereby highlighting the significant contributions each player made to the sport's history. Arkush articulates a deep-seated respect for golf's rich heritage, emphasizing the need to recognize and honor the past, particularly in an era that often prioritizes the present. Our conversation traverses the notable achievements of various golfing icons, including the contrasting legacies of Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus, as well as the profound impact of figures like Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan. We invite our audience to engage with these compelling narratives and reflect on the enduring reverence that the game of golf commands.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Westin
- Weston Kia
- Birdie Ball
- Painter Hills Natural Beef
- Pig Powder
- Golf Newsnet
- ESPN
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
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Transcript
It's time for Grilling at the Green.
Speaker A:Join Jeff Tracy as he explores a golfing lifestyle and tries to keep it in the short grass for the hackers, new sweepers and turf spankers.
Speaker A:Here's Jeff.
Speaker B:Just open up the door and let's take good times.
Speaker B:Tomorrow's gonna be better than today.
Speaker C:Hey, everybody.
Speaker C:Welcome to Grilling at the Green here in Portland, in Seattle, and across the country on a handful of stations.
Speaker C:And also golf newsnet on iHear.
Speaker C:That's a 24.
Speaker C:7 signal.
Speaker C:If you don't know that it's all about golf.
Speaker C:Today, we've got a very special guest, Michael Arkish.
Speaker C:He's got a new book.
Speaker C:Michael's written a ton of books, and we'll talk about some of those a little later in the show.
Speaker C:The new one is called the Golf 100.
Speaker C:A spirited ranking of Golf's Greatest Players of All Time.
Speaker C:And so, according to Jim Dobson, I should give you a hard time on this because I talked to him yesterday.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:But anyway, welcome to the show, Michael.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:I can't wait to hear what Jim had to say.
Speaker C:Well, he and I had a spirited discussion yesterday about some of the rankings, but I caught him at cocktail hour, so I can't hold that against him.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker C:Anyway, what prompted you to write this book?
Speaker B:First of all, so many things.
Speaker B:The prime focus was I kept reading these obituaries online about players who I followed as a kid, and they were on the crawl and ESPN or somewhere else for maybe a day or two, and then they disappeared.
Speaker B:And I always felt like I lost something, like I wanted to learn more, I wanted to know more.
Speaker B:And it just occurred to me how fleeting all of life is, really, and how we recognize people, the past.
Speaker B:But we move on.
Speaker B:We're always so focused on the here and now.
Speaker B:And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that in a sense.
Speaker B:Yet I still feel the past has to be h more recognized and more respected.
Speaker B:So I wanted to bring these players back to life.
Speaker C:Don't you think that just golf in itself, just use that as one term, not try to put any definitions on it.
Speaker C:But golf is respectful.
Speaker C:It's one of the few sports that is respectful of its history.
Speaker B:To some degree, yes, but not as much as I think it should be.
Speaker B:You'd be amazed at how many players I've spoken to who know so little about the heritage and richness of the game.
Speaker B:It's staggering at times, fans as well, they think that some think Tiger invented the sport.
Speaker B:Others think Arnold invented the Sport.
Speaker B:Well, no, I mean, it goes back a lot longer than that.
Speaker B:And even though golf does have a good amount of.
Speaker B:Probably better than a lot of other sports, actually.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, I think the only one that maybe perhaps does it better or at least some reverence to it is maybe baseball in a way, because, you know, they have the hall of Fame and they have all this.
Speaker C:And a lot of people, you can compare stats all the time, which is what you did in this book, but you can compare stats in baseball.
Speaker C:You don't hear that so much in, in football or lacrosse or water polo or anything, you know.
Speaker B:Well, you know what?
Speaker B:I don't, I don't know how many receiving yards Jerry Rice.
Speaker B:I don't know how many receptions Jerry Rice has.
Speaker B:I know about babes, 714 home runs.
Speaker B:I know about.
Speaker B:Sigh.
Speaker B:I mean, the stats in baseball, you grow up as a kid, you don't grow up with basketball or football stats.
Speaker C:No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker C:Everybody, even when you're little, you can understand when you're watching a game and somebody says, well, he's a Cy Young Award winner.
Speaker C:Well, you may not know what that is when you're really little, but as you progress through life, you learn, you know, or your dad tells you or what have you.
Speaker C:But that's why one of the reasons I like golf is because I love to play it.
Speaker C:But I also love the reverence that we pay to the historical values of the sport.
Speaker C:So how did you.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker B:Go ahead.
Speaker C:No, I.
Speaker C:Finish your thought there, please.
Speaker B:No, I mean, the reference is exactly right.
Speaker B:And because we can look back at there.
Speaker B:Plus it's an individual sport, which makes it even more.
Speaker B:Resonates even more that we can compare players of now to before and have that kind of respect.
Speaker C:Yeah, no, I think that's good.
Speaker C:And if you talk to somebody like Jim, you know, he's written so much over the years historically and this and that, and he, and he always is throwing a fun fact at me.
Speaker C:He thinks they're a fun fact.
Speaker C: ou know, somebody did this in: Speaker C:I've made that up.
Speaker C:But you see the analogy there.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:And I, and I think though, that like Jim said, you know, he's in his 70s now.
Speaker C:He goes, what's going to happen 10 years from now when I'm no longer writing and out the door, so to speak.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, he's amazing.
Speaker B:You, you wonder, you worry about people being able to chronicle the.
Speaker B:I'm not sure.
Speaker B:That the current generation is as well prepared to do that as we.
Speaker B:We are or have been to be able to.
Speaker B:To look at it all in a perspective instead of just the here and now, which is so important.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, you know, the age we live in as it's.
Speaker C:People say instant gratification, just like you and I right now doing the show.
Speaker C:Technology is a fascinating and great thing, but I think it's also war our sense of perspective, not just in sports, but in life.
Speaker C:Sometimes I think we.
Speaker C:Right there.
Speaker C:That gets people fired up anyway.
Speaker C:How did you come up with your lack of a better term, your scoring system or your rating system?
Speaker B:Well, I knew all along that I had to come up with some kind of formula, but I just threw it out without numbers at all that people would just totally go after it.
Speaker B:And justifiably so, I.
Speaker B:I had to do that.
Speaker B:I also believed that major championships are the key barometer of this sport.
Speaker B:They really tell us who's been great and who hasn't.
Speaker B:Who's come up short.
Speaker B:Who's come up short when the stakes were at the highest.
Speaker B:So I gave 2,000 points to every major win, 500 for second.
Speaker B:Now, I know that's a large gap, but I do believe the difference between first and second is so huge that it warranted that.
Speaker B:250 for third, 100 for fourth, and 50 for fifth.
Speaker B:Anything worse than that?
Speaker B:No points.
Speaker B:I gave 300 points for regular tour events because they are.
Speaker B:They have value.
Speaker B:But not for somebody who shoots a 66 on Sunday when they're nine back to wind up, wind up in a tie for third when there's really no pressure on.
Speaker B:They're pretty much off TV already.
Speaker B:When you, when you show up, when you start watching.
Speaker B:So majors, majors, majors.
Speaker B:That's the point.
Speaker C:Are they all equal though, the majors?
Speaker C:That's one of the things that struck me, because it's a major.
Speaker C:Equal.
Speaker C:Was one of Ben Hogan's majors equal to one of Tiger's majors?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, perspective.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, you have to go back into what is considered a major in its time.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So, yeah, all the majors are equal.
Speaker B:Some people will say, well, shouldn't the Open or the Masters be at a higher level than the pga?
Speaker B:No, I didn't make that distinction.
Speaker B:Every major is important.
Speaker B:The one thing I did make very important though, as well, was the role of the US And British Amateur, which were majors for the longest time.
Speaker B:They have been forgotten.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:I bet you could not name the last five US Amateur winners.
Speaker B:I don't know anybody who could really.
Speaker B:Maybe somebody in amateur golf.
Speaker B:But we've lost something because of that.
Speaker B:And I wanted to do my part to try to restore that.
Speaker C:Well, actually, you know, when you think about it, you go back, let's go back 100 years.
Speaker C:If it were to the Bobby Jones era, those amateurs championships were huge.
Speaker C:That's what made the papers, as they would say.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:You go back.
Speaker B:I've gone through a lot of papers and seen how big they were.
Speaker B:I can even remember as a kid, even the amateurs in the 60s and 70s being a bigger deal.
Speaker B:Not quite as big, I know, as before, but there's such a beauty and to amateur golf, to playing for the pursuit of the title as opposed to the paycheck.
Speaker B:And that, sadly, is gone right now.
Speaker C:Do you think the money has gotten well out of the realm of reality?
Speaker C:You know, when a guy can go out and shoot well, and it's a tough deal, anybody who plays knows it's tough.
Speaker C:And if you want to be good at that level, you have to be really good.
Speaker C:I get that.
Speaker C:But also, is that worth a $3 million check on Sunday?
Speaker B:Well, the money being part of the whole equation is too often discussed.
Speaker B:The moment a tour player wins on Sunday, you see the FedEx cup standings on the TV.
Speaker B:I don't care about the FedEx cup standings.
Speaker B:And I don't.
Speaker B:I hate the expression when a guy misses a four footer who's tied for third or fourth and somebody says that's going to cost him a lot of money.
Speaker B:Do they say that about Aaron Judge when he drops a fly ball or LeBron when he misses a jumper?
Speaker B:No, we should not have money be something we discuss as often as we do, period.
Speaker C:Yeah, I was it.
Speaker C:Obi Keeler said money will ruin the game.
Speaker C:You know, almost 100 years ago, give or take.
Speaker C:And I'm not going to say it's going to ruin it, but I think it's well out of the reach of the normal mind, put it that way.
Speaker C:We're going to take a break.
Speaker C:We're going to be back with Michael Arkosh and his 100 Top 100, the spirited ranking of golf's greatest, right after this.
Speaker D:Hey, everybody, JT here.
Speaker D:You know, every week on grilling at the green, we bring you a travel tip and that is brought to you by the Westin dealerships.
Speaker D:I've known those guys since I was a kid.
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Speaker D:It's family oriented and there's no better people to Deal with Check out Weston Weston Kia on Southeast Stark in Gresham, Oregon.
Speaker B:Hi, I'm Debbie O'Connell, LPGA Professional and Golf mind expert.
Speaker B:You're listening to Jeff on Grilling at the Green.
Speaker C:Welcome back to Grilling at the Green.
Speaker C:I'm jt.
Speaker C:We'd like to thank the folks at Birdie Ball.
Speaker C:If you need a golf practice mat, check out birdieball.com they got lots of choices.
Speaker C:And be sure to get a dozen birdie balls to help with your practice round.
Speaker C:I actually have that set up in my backyard and it helps.
Speaker C:Not everything is going to help my golf game.
Speaker C:I know that, but you know that those will help.
Speaker C:And also Painter Hills natural beef beef the way nature intended.
Speaker C:So, Michael, before we get back to your book, this is the part of the show that I always ask my guest for a travel tip of all things.
Speaker C:Now as a writer and you're going around to tournaments like you said, you know, you were talking to Jim Furyk.
Speaker C:Excuse me, you said that right at the on the forward of the book about he kind of thought you were crazy a little bit to take on this assignment.
Speaker C:But you have to travel around, especially if you're a sports writer.
Speaker C:So you must have a travel tip whether it's with golf clubs or not.
Speaker B:Yeah, I do.
Speaker B:I think the most important thing is to study the history of where you're going as much as you can.
Speaker B:Don't just there are distinctions in places and each place, like each individual has his or own history.
Speaker B:And I think you need to just do your homework and not just show up somewhere.
Speaker B:Oh God, not every place is the same.
Speaker B:I think we start to get into that habit.
Speaker B:Just try to learn so that when you get there, go, oh, wow.
Speaker B:I read about this a week ago.
Speaker B:And that's just for you when you're any kind of trip, really.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:As I said at the top.
Speaker C:We're talking with Michael Arkosh, whose new book really kind of caught me off guard in some things because you don't just do the numbers.
Speaker C:You've got stories mixed in there about things that happened in life to people.
Speaker C:And as we were talking about the top of the show, people get forgotten, you know, major winners and people that really had a big influence on the game and their, their presence, their history just kind of vanishes away at times.
Speaker C:How long did it take you to write this?
Speaker B:The whole process took me almost three years.
Speaker B:The writing part maybe around two, a little more than two.
Speaker B:But the funny thing is I wrote so many sections early on that I was Looking back at it a year, year and a half later, which I never really had done.
Speaker B:And then who you are a year, a year and a half later is so different.
Speaker B:And then you have to integrate all the other material you've had.
Speaker B:So it was a lot of rewriting.
Speaker C:Did you, when you, let's talk about like the Bernard Langer there and you said something that I didn't know as far as he got hurt when he was in the service, I don't know if that information has always been readily available, but I evidently never caught it.
Speaker C:But he hurt his back and he did all that.
Speaker C:And then when he was a kid, tried to tell the, the people in Germany has a different educational system than we have here and he wanted to be a pro golfer.
Speaker C:And the, the bureaucrat came back and said, we don't have that basically.
Speaker C:But how long did it take you to kind of, you know, filter out those types of, of stories and the background stuff?
Speaker B:Well, quite a while.
Speaker B:I mean, a number of the players I interviewed about 30 of the 40 some odd players who are still alive or in the book.
Speaker B:And I probably, in those, those 30 players, I probably interviewed each of them an average of four to eight, five or six times.
Speaker B:Something like that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I kept coming back at them because, you know, they'd say something and I take my notes and transcribe it and write, go, wait a minute, there's some holes here.
Speaker B:And I was really fortunate because there were two people I talked to fairly early in the process who both wound up passing while I was working on this book.
Speaker B:And that greatly affected me.
Speaker B:I'm talking about Tom Weiskopf and Kathy Whitworth.
Speaker B:And I just found, I found myself so blessed that I was able to talk to them and get incredible insight.
Speaker B:They were both so kind.
Speaker B:And again, it's weird.
Speaker B:I mean, I didn't know them that well and yes.
Speaker B:Yet it felt so.
Speaker B:It was really hard on me when they passed.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, you know, when you make those connections with people, even we do it here on this show, you know, it's.
Speaker C:You kind of, like I said, you connect, you, you feel like you know them and then when they're gone, it's like, man, I wish I could have talked to him for another hour just to.
Speaker B:Well, I, I had, I actually had jotted down some questions I was going to come back to Kathy with.
Speaker B:Tom was suffering from cancer.
Speaker B:It wasn't that unexpected.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:But I really plan to come back to Kathy about a month or so after she wound up passing.
Speaker B:And it was just, you know, it was just horrible.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, you know, it's.
Speaker C:Unfortunately, none of us are going to get out of that deal, Michael.
Speaker C:That's, that's the, that's at the bottom of the page, I think, for all of us.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:What was the, the thing in a particular interview or person that you interviewed that you felt like one, you really, really learned something, and two was like your most pleasurable to find that information.
Speaker B:Oh, boy, that's so many people.
Speaker B:I would say Wisekopf coming, going back to him was one of the most enjoyable interviews because he had the reputation of being a tough guy.
Speaker B:Terrible Tom, Towering Inferno, short temper, all that stuff.
Speaker B:And I was a little bit uneasy about what the interview would be like, and he could not have been kinder and more gracious and open.
Speaker B:So that was a bit of surprise, a welcome surprise for me.
Speaker B:The real joy, in many ways was catching up with the players I covered in the 90s, like Hale Irwin.
Speaker B:People I knew a little bit like Tom Kite, Lanny, just guys like that.
Speaker B:Lenny Watkins, that I was able to kind of catch up.
Speaker B:Lenny, I didn't really know that well.
Speaker B:And Tom I didn't know well that.
Speaker B:But Hale I covered all the time to just check in with him, and it was great.
Speaker B:He's in his late 70s and he was the same sort of competitive tough guy that he was when I covered him.
Speaker B:It was, it was a blast.
Speaker B:Catch up again.
Speaker C:Oh, cool.
Speaker C:Cool.
Speaker C:Was there one that was maybe not so open to you?
Speaker B:You know, I wouldn't say not so.
Speaker B:Athletes, professional athletes put a lot of them put up a wall, and even golfers, and sometimes it's really hard.
Speaker B:You think you're a really skilled interviewer.
Speaker B:It's hard to penetrate that wall.
Speaker B:And I, I, in some cases, I don't feel like I penetrated as much as I created.
Speaker B:Maybe little cracks and stuff came out.
Speaker B:So I'm not going to name who they are, but some are tougher than others.
Speaker B:But by and large, most of the people I talked to were so open and part of it.
Speaker B:I also wanted to find out how they felt now about their lives as so much time has gone by.
Speaker B:How do they look back on.
Speaker B:On their careers and.
Speaker B:And off the course.
Speaker B:And they were.
Speaker B:They were fabulous.
Speaker C:Well, that's.
Speaker C:Consider yourself very lucky to.
Speaker C:To be able to speak to some of those folks.
Speaker B:Yes, I do.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's really cool.
Speaker C:We're talking with Michael Arkash here.
Speaker C:His new book.
Speaker C:I want to get the title right here.
Speaker C:Where did I put it?
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The Golf 100, a spirited ranking of golf's greatest players of all time.
Speaker C:And it's available now out there.
Speaker C:It's, I think it's on Amazon and different bookstores and stuff.
Speaker C:Michael and I will be back in just a moment.
Speaker C:Don't go away.
Speaker D:Hey, everybody, is J.T.
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Speaker C:You won't regret it.
Speaker C:Welcome back to Grilling at the green.
Speaker C:I'm J.T.
Speaker C:hey, we want to thank the folks over at Weston Kia in Portland for that last segment.
Speaker C:We always appreciate that.
Speaker C:And Jay and Jan west in there, big supporters of all my golf endeavors with the tournaments I help.
Speaker C:So we want to thank them a lot.
Speaker C:We're talking with Michael Arkish today.
Speaker C:The the Golf 100A Spirited Ranking of golf's greatest players of all time.
Speaker C:I'm doing that because I got so many papers on my desk here today, Michael, so forgive me for that.
Speaker C:Okay, so given everything is a level playing field.
Speaker C:Well, and we'll get to Tiger and Jack a little bit later because you, you can't get out of this interview without talking about Tiger and Jack wanted one and two like that.
Speaker C:But you know, when you, when you think about like let's talk about Mickey Wright and Annika and you measure, you measured that on majors and all that.
Speaker C:But some people would be staunchly saying Mickey Wright was great but Annika was better.
Speaker C:And so how do you answer those people when they.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, you mean Annika.
Speaker B:Let's put it this way.
Speaker B:Annika.
Speaker B:I'm not saying that players on a who wound up higher in the list would necessarily beat those lower on the list in a head to head match.
Speaker B:I'm just going by what they achieved in their time against their level of their competition.
Speaker B:And Mickey Wright by the way, had a four year run in early 60s, about 44 wins I believe.
Speaker B:Tom Watson called it the greatest run any player, male or female has ever had.
Speaker B:Ben Hogan said she had the greatest swing he had ever seen.
Speaker B:She basically scaled back from the game at the age of 34 and still won 82 times.
Speaker B:Would have won 90, maybe close to 100.
Speaker B:Annika, I have all the respect in the world sure.
Speaker B:But Mickey Wright, to me, is the greatest woman golfer of all time.
Speaker B:No question.
Speaker C:Who was the most flamboyant women's golfer?
Speaker C:Was it Babe?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, it's so funny, Jeff.
Speaker B:I mean, there are certain people.
Speaker B:I mean, there are so many players in here I wish I'd gotten to know.
Speaker B:I wish I'd seen play.
Speaker B:Babe would be very, if not at the top of the list, very close.
Speaker B:If you said to me, which other players would you like to be part of your foursome?
Speaker B:No question Babe would be in there.
Speaker B:What a character.
Speaker B:What charisma.
Speaker B:And how about winning the U.S.
Speaker B:women's Open after cancer surgery, which is, to me, one of the most remarkable stories in golf, in all of sports.
Speaker C:There's a story, and I don't know if it's true about her, but that she was playing.
Speaker C:Maybe it was an exhibition or something, Michael.
Speaker C:And she took off her girdle because she didn't want to wear girdle that day.
Speaker C:Now, Most people don't.
Speaker C:25 and under don't even know what a girdle is anymore.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker C:I do because my mother wore one.
Speaker C:And it just.
Speaker C:It looked like torture to me.
Speaker C:But I always thought that that was a fascinating story, you know, exposing her character there.
Speaker C:Not exposing anything else, just her character because she lived life to the fullest.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:So competitive.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, she was.
Speaker B:She didn't want to even lose in Silver Screen.
Speaker B:I mean, there was a movie that Katharine Hepburn was in, a Gotham movie.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:BAE played, was the real, you know, her real character, and she.
Speaker B:The script had her losing, and she.
Speaker B:That she made it change the script.
Speaker B:I mean, she wasn't.
Speaker B:And a lot of stories about.
Speaker B:Some people thought she was too competitive, some people thought that she did some things that were not kosher, let's say.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Well, I've read those stories.
Speaker C:But, you know, if I could go back and.
Speaker C:And visit with a player, she would definitely be in my top five, because I.
Speaker C:I just.
Speaker C:I just love people that are just full of life and.
Speaker C:And that would be your top five.
Speaker C:Walter Hagen.
Speaker B:Yes, I was.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:I knew you're going to say that.
Speaker B:I agree with him.
Speaker B:Yep, yep, yep.
Speaker C:Walter Hagen.
Speaker C:You know, it would be great to see Bobby Jones and all that historically, but I think.
Speaker C:I think Hagan.
Speaker C:I think maybe Tony Lima, because he died when we were very young like that.
Speaker C:I did see Ben Hogan one time eating lunch down in Texas.
Speaker C:You didn't go over and say hello to him.
Speaker C:He was Just sitting there like that.
Speaker C:But I think, oh, who else?
Speaker C:The name's evading me.
Speaker C:He was a real character.
Speaker C:He was from Texas.
Speaker C:He always dressed flamboyantly.
Speaker B:Oh, Jimmy Demerit.
Speaker C:Jimmy Demerit.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I think those guys were a lot of fun too.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I think overall all the players were more fun than they are tonight today.
Speaker B:They were real characters.
Speaker B:They weren't, you know, they didn't have all the sponsors, clothing, names on their clothing.
Speaker B:They were individuals.
Speaker B:Yeah, I missed that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think that that was.
Speaker C:And you know, they didn't have an entourage.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker C:They maybe had a caddy, but other than that, they didn't.
Speaker B:Didn't have a quote team, you know, my team.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, a lot of them.
Speaker C:And when the, when the tours ended for the year, they went back to a club pro job.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker C:You know, that type of thing.
Speaker C:So it's wasn't quite as lucrative as it is today.
Speaker C:Corporate, now they.
Speaker C:Yeah, now they go get on their jet and they, they fly home or they go to the Bahamas for three days or whatever to hang out.
Speaker C:But anyway, yeah, I think those would be some fun people to do.
Speaker C:All right, who's also.
Speaker C:Okay, so you got, as we just mentioned, Bobby Jones versus Ben Hogan.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And we all know the Hogan story.
Speaker C:He got hurt terribly and came back and, and all that.
Speaker C:And you know, Jones quit at an early age and retired.
Speaker C:But if, if you were a betting man and you put them all things given equal and they could be on a course, any course, and play against each other, who would you think might have an edge?
Speaker B:Are you talking about the.
Speaker B:The equipment?
Speaker B:So let's say we, we put them.
Speaker B: nes stopped playing basically: Speaker B:Hogan came about half decade, decade later.
Speaker B: You take go: Speaker B:They're both or 19.
Speaker B:They're both about 30 years old, let's say.
Speaker B:Let's make him about 30 at the peak.
Speaker B:It's a great question.
Speaker B:Very close.
Speaker B:I think that you have to also factor in that Jones didn't put the clubs away for months at a time.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Day job.
Speaker B:So if Bobby Jones is playing regularly and Ben Hogan's playing regularly, it would have been one heck of a match.
Speaker B:I just think, Jeff, that Bobby Jones had more of a profound impact on this game than Ben Hogan and perhaps more than anyone, with the exception of.
Speaker B:Of Arnold and Tiger, probably.
Speaker C:I think, I think you're right, Michael, because I think Bobby Jones made it so that it was fun and interesting and enticing for the Michaels and the Jeffs of the world.
Speaker C:And I think Hogan was really the start of the intense competition.
Speaker C:Mental stuff, you know, because how much he practiced and how serious he was, I mean he liked to have a good time.
Speaker C:It seems like when he was away from the course with his family and what friends he had.
Speaker C:But out there on the course he.
Speaker C:And I've watched films of him.
Speaker C:I never too, you know, he was too far along when we were kids to actually watch him play seriously like that.
Speaker C:But he looked like, you know, Darth Vader out there.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I think great part of greatness and there are a lot of elements to it is how do you connect to other people?
Speaker B:How much of yourself do you expose, reveal to others?
Speaker B:And Bobby Jones was there.
Speaker B:We, I mean I don't know, I was around but, but people connected with him and Hogan maintained his distance and I think closeness is an important part of it.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, you know, Bobby Jones was kind of the people's guy which Arnold picked up 50 years later type thing.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Who's my other one here that I had, I had a couple comparisons for you like that.
Speaker C:How about.
Speaker C:We'll go back up the list a little ways.
Speaker C:But how about Bernard Langer and I'm having a, I'm having a tough time today.
Speaker C:Remembered Michael and, and, and like demerit one of those guys or Hagan.
Speaker B:Well, I mean Langer, you know, the great story about him is that he was, you referred to it earlier, great resilience.
Speaker B:I mean coming from a country which basically didn't really have golf to succeed at that level.
Speaker B:Also he was victimized by the yips.
Speaker B:Terrible case of the yips.
Speaker B:Some examples him, four putting, five putting.
Speaker B:How he was able to overcome all that to become a two time major champion and a 47 time winner on the champion store is still out there.
Speaker B:He's turning 67.
Speaker B:Am I wait, I'm wrong.
Speaker B:I think he's turning 68.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He's unbelievable.
Speaker C:Oh, no doubt about that.
Speaker C:So we've got all this and of course people are not going to be happy.
Speaker C:But when we come back from a break, which we're 20 seconds away from a break here, but when we do that, guess who we're going to talk about?
Speaker C:Tiger and Jack.
Speaker C:You didn't ever guess that, would you Michael?
Speaker B:Who are they?
Speaker B:I'm sorry, tell me, who are they?
Speaker C:Yeah, 1 and 2 at the top of your list.
Speaker C:I love that, I love that because there's, that's, I think that's actually going to be an argument or a discussion amongst people if you want that civilized people that will go on forever.
Speaker C:That's just my take.
Speaker C:Two different things.
Speaker C:Anyway, Michael and I are going to talk about Tiger and Jack when we come back.
Speaker C:As I said, we're talking with Michael Arkush, whose new book the Golf 100 A Spirited Ranking of Golf's Greatest Players of All Time.
Speaker C:This is one hell of an endeavor, people, I can tell you that.
Speaker C:Just the research that had to go into it.
Speaker C:But I do like his point system.
Speaker C:Anyway, Michael and I will be back in just a minute.
Speaker C:Don't go away.
Speaker D:Hey everybody, JT here.
Speaker D:If you need something to practice with in the inclement weather, try birdie ball.
Speaker D:Go to birdieball.com check out the actual birdie balls, their packages, their putting greens.
Speaker C:Which I happen to have a couple.
Speaker D:Of those and they work great.
Speaker D:Birdieball.com.
Speaker B:Foreign.
Speaker C:Welcome back to grilling at the green.
Speaker C:Real quick here.
Speaker C:We want to thank the folks up at Birdie Wrap.
Speaker C:If you've never had Birdie Wrap, I get little sores on my knuckles and stuff of my offhand, my non glove hand.
Speaker C:I guess it's from working outside a lot of my younger world.
Speaker C:That Birdie Wrap stuff is really good.
Speaker C:It's kind of like tape K tape, but it's stretchier and softer and it works better with if you got moisture, which we have here in the Northwest.
Speaker C:So go to birdierap.com and also my radio wife on my other show, her family has a product called Pig Powder.
Speaker C:It's been rated the best barbecue rub on the planet.
Speaker C:So go to pigpowder.com and tell Leanne I told her to send you a autographed picture, by the way, if she does that.
Speaker C:Anyway, we're talking with Michael Arkush today with his new book, okay, Tiger Jack.
Speaker C:I'm a un unashamed, un un, make no excuses Tiger fan.
Speaker C:Even though I'm, you know, 15 years older than he is, I'm a Tiger fan, right?
Speaker C:Just because I like the way he played the game when I was growing up.
Speaker C:And that's all you saw on TV was Jack or Jack and Arnie, that type of thing.
Speaker C:Was that tough?
Speaker C:I mean, you did it on a point basis and you explained that at the top of the show.
Speaker C:But perspective wise, was it only a point basis for you?
Speaker B:Well, let me put it this way.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm not arguing that Tiger wasn't better at his peak.
Speaker B:I'm not arguing the Tiger didn't have more dominance.
Speaker B:I think you can make that case very strongly.
Speaker B:But when you look at the length and body of Jack's work, not just the.
Speaker B:And I'm giving him 20 majors, remember, not 18, 19 seconds, all the thirds.
Speaker B:When you look at that versus how many times Tiger was in the mix at majors, again, the barometer of this game, in my opinion, Jack, the numbers just favor Jack.
Speaker B:I gave Tiger bonus points for his impact on the game because he impacted the sport tremendously.
Speaker B:But the numbers favor Jack, and there's a greatness to Jack and I.
Speaker B:And I also wrote in the chapter about Tiger how you cannot escape the issues.
Speaker B:He's the situation, the controversy, what he went through.
Speaker B:That is also an element of greatness that I think you.
Speaker B:That has to be factored or lack of greatness.
Speaker B:That has to be factored in.
Speaker B:Jack was amazing as.
Speaker B:And what did Chichi say?
Speaker B:He was a legend in his spare time.
Speaker B:You know, there are a lot of times he didn't play that many tournaments.
Speaker B: , after winning the Open in: Speaker C:Do you think, Michael, that talking about Tiger for a second here?
Speaker C:Because supposedly he's tied with Stamp, Sam Snead and the amount of tournaments won.
Speaker C:If you go back and look at Sneed's records, some of those were almost like exhibitions that they awarded a victory to him.
Speaker C:I think if you kind of filtered out half a dozen or so of those questionable tournaments.
Speaker C:Guy was a great golfer.
Speaker C:I'm not saying he wasn't.
Speaker C:I think Tiger would hold the record for the most tournaments.
Speaker C:That's my thought.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, look it.
Speaker B:I covered a bunch of Tigers tournaments.
Speaker B:I saw him up close.
Speaker B:I saw how unbelievable he.
Speaker B:He was.
Speaker B: I was at Torrey Pines in: Speaker B:32 years old.
Speaker B:Everybody assumed he was going to break Jack's record.
Speaker B:It wasn't a question of if, it was when.
Speaker B:Maybe three, four or five years down the road, he should be the greatest player of all time, but he's not.
Speaker C:Yeah, no, I can accept that.
Speaker C:I can accept that.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I just think also the PGA has a funny way sometimes of qua.
Speaker C:You know, qualifying and quantifying tournaments.
Speaker C:Like, I was just talking about Snead, you know, I.
Speaker C:If you're gonna go back and make a level playing field, then it has to be level for everybody.
Speaker C:That's my thought.
Speaker C:But no, I understand.
Speaker B:I respect that opinion.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But, you know, Snead, what a character.
Speaker B:You talk about somebody you'd want to be in your foursome, he'd be right up there as well.
Speaker B:I interviewed him a couple times, you know, near the end of his life.
Speaker B:He was a joy.
Speaker B:It was a joy to talk to, I can tell you that.
Speaker C:Hey, a very athletic guy.
Speaker C:I mean, I've seen the pictures of him, you know, standing still and then kicking the door, jam and stuff like that.
Speaker C:You know, it's just like, how do you.
Speaker C:The guy was like 79 years old when he did that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you know what?
Speaker B:You know what takes something away from his greatness?
Speaker B:That he never won the US Open.
Speaker B:Same thing with Bill.
Speaker B:Nancy Lopez, you don't win your nation's national championship, that's a strike against you.
Speaker C:That is true.
Speaker C:Where all can they find the Golf 100?
Speaker B:Well, it's available.
Speaker B:It's actually the publication date.
Speaker B:The release date is Tuesday, April 1, but it's available on Amazon.
Speaker B:You can also go to the Penguin Random website as well.
Speaker B:I hope people read it and I hope they enjoy it, and I welcome any questions or any challenges.
Speaker B:Bring it on.
Speaker B:That's all I can say.
Speaker C:Okay, we can do that.
Speaker C:Michael Arkosh, the Golf 100 as spirited ranking of Golf's Greatest Players of All Time.
Speaker C:Thank you, my friend.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker C:We'll be back next week with another edition.
Speaker C:Until then, Michael and I are going to jump over into After Hours, and I hope you go out, play some golf, have some fun.
Speaker C:But most of all, be kind.
Speaker C:Take care, everybody.
Speaker A:Grilling at the Green is produced by JTSD Productions, LLC in association with Salem Media Group.
Speaker A:All rights reserved.
