Mark Wagner, PhD - Educator and Writer - Encore
The salient point of our discussion centers on the intriguing intersection of Native American history and the sport of golf, as elucidated in Mark Wagner's newly published work, "Native Links: The Surprising History of Our First Peoples in Golf." This episode delves into the extensive research that reveals the substantial contributions of Native American tribes to the golfing landscape, particularly in the context of economic development through golf courses established on tribal lands. We explore the multifaceted narratives of notable figures such as Oscar Bunn and Orville Moody, whose stories encapsulate the rich heritage and continued presence of Native Americans in golf. Furthermore, we reflect on the broader implications of golf as an avenue for empowerment and cultural recovery within Native communities. Join us as we unravel these compelling stories that highlight both the historical and contemporary significance of golf in the lives of Indigenous peoples.
Links referenced in this episode:
- paintedhillsbeef.com
- squares.com
- golfcoursearchitecture.com
- nativelinks.net
- back9press.com
- birdieball.com
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painted Hills Natural Beef
- Oregon Crab Commission
- Golf Course Architecture
- Tudoros
- Reese Jones
- Robert Trent Jones
- Foxwoods
- Mashantucket Pequot
- Santa Ana Pueblo
- Tesla
- Westin dealerships
- Squares Golf Shoes
- Grilla Grill
- Circling Raven
- N7
- Nike
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
It's time for grilling at the green.
Speaker A:Join Jeff Tracy as he explores the golfing lifestyle and tries to keep it in the short grass.
Speaker A:For the hackers, new sweepers and turf spankers, here's Jeff.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, welcome to grilling.
Speaker A:It's green.
Speaker A:I'm jt.
Speaker A:How is your golf this week?
Speaker A:And depending on what part of the country you live in, you either got to play some or you didn't.
Speaker A:Weather indicative this time of year.
Speaker A:Of course, we'd like to thank the folks at Painted Hills Natural Beef and the Oregon Crab Commission for being great supporters of this show.
Speaker A:Well, I'm really happy to welcome my guest today, Mark Wagner.
Speaker A:Mark's got a new book, Native the Surprising History of our First People in Golf.
Speaker A:First of all, Mark, welcome.
Speaker A:Nice job on the book, by the way.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Yeah, thank you so much for reaching out, Jeff.
Speaker B:I really appreciate it and I look forward to our conversation.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's all good.
Speaker A:I guess the first obvious question is what prompted you to write this and to research it and write it.
Speaker A:There's a lot of research in this book.
Speaker B:Yeah, there is.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's my wheelhouse writing and research.
Speaker B:Being a 12 handicapper, you know, I, I'm not making any money in golf, but about, I, I do some writing for Golf Course Architecture, a magazine that's published, it's a global magazine, but it's published in Britain by Tudoros.
Speaker B:And about two years ago I was interviewing Reese Jones, well known architect, the son of Robert, Senior brother to RTJ2, they call him.
Speaker B:And those guys have a lot of work for, for the native tribes, by the way.
Speaker B:But I was interviewing him about Lake of Isles, which is a two courses.
Speaker B:It's actually 36 holes north and south down in the Mashantucket Pequot reservation in Connecticut.
Speaker B:Some people recognize Mashantucket Pequots as one of the more successful gaming tribes.
Speaker B:They have Foxwoods, which is one of, I think it is the successful casino not only in the country, I think it's the, one of the more successful casinos in the world.
Speaker B:Drawn on that New York, you know, New York, Boston corridor there.
Speaker B:I'm interviewing Reese Jones and I'm interviewing the historian for the Mashantucket Pequot.
Speaker B:It's a woman by the name of Lori Potter.
Speaker B:And I wrote up that article.
Speaker B:That article is available online at Golf Course Architecture.
Speaker B:And I said to myself, this is about two years ago, Jeff.
Speaker B:I said, well, this is kind of interesting.
Speaker B:I'm like, how many native tribes own golf courses, you know, and sure, Enough.
Speaker B:I started doing some research and now it's 70, 70 tribes around the country are own and operate golf courses.
Speaker B:And mostly that is because of gaming.
Speaker B: Mostly that is in the post: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B: In: Speaker B:And since that time 70, 70 or so, excuse me, tribes have, have gone into golf.
Speaker B:And so that began the pro, that began the project.
Speaker B:I, I started researching that.
Speaker B:As I mentioned, Reese Jones designed three courses for native tribes.
Speaker B:He worked with this Lakota Sioux, among others, and then his brother, Robert Trent Jones did a lot of work for the Seneca tribe in New York, the Mohawk Tribe.
Speaker B:And also he did one of the first native owned courses, Pochiti Pueblo out there in New Mexico.
Speaker B:And there's a wonderful interview, I think with Robert Trent Jones Jr. About his work with Cochiti.
Speaker B:And so that's where it began.
Speaker B: golf going back to whatever,: Speaker B:And sure enough I turned up some, as you say, some research about native players along the way too.
Speaker A:Yeah, they did.
Speaker A:In fact, I'm going to talk about a few of those or ask you to talk about them a little later in the show.
Speaker A:But I found that really interesting.
Speaker A:And also you're talking about golf courses.
Speaker A:We have a number, I live in Oregon, as most people know.
Speaker A:We have a number of them out here.
Speaker A:Wild Horse, Kanita, Chinook Winds, Oregon Dune or Ocean dunes, excuse me, like that.
Speaker A:And I've noticed that in the last, say 10 to 15 years that the tribes have, if they've got a casino, exactly what you were talking about, Mark.
Speaker A:But now some of the other tribes that are looking into building courses, you know, adjacent to the casinos or relatively close, that they already have the land for and stuff, to me it's a natural, it's a natural mesh for them to do that.
Speaker A:And I find that kind of fascinating that, you know, that they actually, I mean it's a monetary thing, they want to make money and business in that, but it's also kind of a natural addition to what they're doing.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I think you're right.
Speaker B:And the last third of Native Links, my book, by the way, I think, you know, is a glossary of all the native owned courses.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that might be my next project, by the way.
Speaker B:So I'd like to talk a little bit about that as we go, but I'd love to go around and play them all and, and do a little essay on not only the, the courses, but the tribes, the tribal histories and so on, and maybe some of the people involved, but that's, that's for another day.
Speaker B:But yeah, no, they, with the gaming, with the casinos, they've been able to hire the best.
Speaker B:You know, they've hired Reese, Reese Jones, his brother, RTJ2.
Speaker B:They've hired Bill Core and Ben Crenshaw.
Speaker B:You know, those guys are at the top of their game.
Speaker B:They're doing artwork.
Speaker B:You know, as far as golf courses, they did Weeko pa, they did talking stick.
Speaker B:They've hired Jeff Brower.
Speaker B:The list goes on.
Speaker B:You know, they're hiring Pete Nalistai.
Speaker B:Pete Nalistai's daughter has worked with the tribes up in Washington.
Speaker B:I think it was.
Speaker B:I'm gonna Salish maybe is the name of the course.
Speaker B:So it's really, you know, it's just a fascinating story, you know.
Speaker B:And I want to also mention that not only the casinos and golf, which as you point out, is kind of a natural fit, the, the revenues have also enabled them to build archives and museums.
Speaker B:Some of them are now going into their own schools and language programs.
Speaker B:So in terms of Native history, you know, it's, it's a win, win in many respects that the recovery, you know, it's, it's fueled by gaming.
Speaker B:But, you know, a lot of the tribes want to kind of branch out from that and create other economic endeavors.
Speaker B:You look at Santa Ana Pueblo, which holds the Native American Open each year, which I just was at just a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker B:You know, they have a Tesla dealership, they have a school, they have a retail mall, they have gas stations, they have, you know, so it's not only golf, you know, they're.
Speaker B:They have, I think it's five corporations.
Speaker B:Santa Anna, where the revenues are from gaming, have been driving economic recovery for the tribes.
Speaker B:And, you know, we all know that history, it's, it's a, it's a dark moment in terms of American history that, you know, I love celebrating their recovery.
Speaker B:I love celebrating the fact that they're still here, as the natives like to say.
Speaker B:And we can take part in that recovery, supporting these things, playing those courses and being aware of it, just being aware that this is happening.
Speaker B:And it's a good thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, it really is.
Speaker A:And I say more power to them.
Speaker A:I think, as you were just describing, I think in a very short order, and some of it, with the help of your book, they will start to think of them as more destination Resorts with these golf courses and the malls and the restaurants and theaters and so on and so forth, they will think of them more that way than just there's another Indian casino.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I've run into that, you know, that, that use that phrase, Indian casino, which, you know, I think some people can use as a pejorative kind of a negative term.
Speaker B:But let's keep in mind, you know, that we all, we're all, we're all part of this, you know, and one of the arguments in my book is that we're all mixed, right?
Speaker B:We're all, we all have different bloodlines coming from different places.
Speaker B:And there's no reason why we can't celebrate that recovery even if it, you know, even if in some, you know, whatever some viewpoints gaming is, you know, it might encourage some, some small part of the population to, you know, fall to habits and so on.
Speaker B:I'll point out one thing.
Speaker B:Thornberry up in Oneida territory, right.
Speaker B:They have a relationship now with the lpga.
Speaker B:So it's, it's not only destination resorts that you mentioned, Circling Raven up in Idaho has hosted the lpga.
Speaker B:Thornberry is the home course of the Green Bay Packers.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And in fact, that's part of their insignia is that big G. So these partnerships are growing.
Speaker B:It's recent history.
Speaker B: nough to say, well, you know,: Speaker A:You know, not that long ago.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We're going to take a break.
Speaker A:We're going to be back with Mark Wagner, Dr. Mark Wagner, by the way, his new book, Native Links the Surprising History of Our First Peoples in Golf.
Speaker A:We're going to be back in just a minute.
Speaker A:Stay with us.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, JT here, you know, every week on Grilling it to Green, we bring you a travel tip and that is brought to you by the Westin dealerships.
Speaker A:I've known those guys since I was a kid and they have one way of doing business.
Speaker A:It's called the Weston Way.
Speaker A:It's family oriented and there's no better people to deal with.
Speaker A:Check out Weston Kia on Southeast Stark in Gresham, Oregon.
Speaker A:Welcome back to Grilling at the green.
Speaker A:I'm J.T.
Speaker A:today we've got Mark Wagner, who has a Ph.D. by the way, and we're talking about his new book, Native Links, the Surprising History of Our First People in Golf.
Speaker A:It's a great book.
Speaker A:There's a lot of history in it.
Speaker A:And in just a second, I'm going to ask him about several of the people that he featured in the book.
Speaker A:But first, this is every show where we do a travel tip.
Speaker A:And I sent Mark an email on this yesterday, said, don't be surprised, but when you go and research a book like this, you've traveled some.
Speaker A:So what's your best travel tip for golfers, whether they're writing a book or just going to play?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, that's a.
Speaker B:That's a great question.
Speaker B:You know, I, I'm, I'm a golfer myself.
Speaker B:I love golf.
Speaker B:I love traveling and having a destination in mind to just go and play.
Speaker B:And one of the, one of the surprising discoveries for me was I was out in, quote, unquote, Indian country, but which is also, you know, golf country, like Scottsdale, Arizona Post in Butte, Arizona.
Speaker B:And I drove down the John Wayne highway south of.
Speaker B:South of Phoenix to Ach Chin Reservation, AK-C H I N. And that's, that's not far from Phoenix.
Speaker B:If you're in Phoenix, you can, you can get down there in about 45 minutes.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Oh, my, Jeff, that was one of the finest courses I've ever set foot on.
Speaker B:Just so beautiful.
Speaker B:Designed by Steve Curley down there.
Speaker B:It was originally designed.
Speaker B:It's kind of an interesting history I go into in the book.
Speaker B:It was designed originally as a exclusive club.
Speaker B:It was going to be a club for the athletes from la.
Speaker B:John Daly was involved, Charles Barkley was involved.
Speaker B:It was going to be kind of a bohemian type club.
Speaker B:And it didn't work out.
Speaker B:And so with the help of a Fee to trust program, the Akchin Reservation, the Akchin Tribal Council purchased it.
Speaker B:So it is now.
Speaker B:And it hosts the Copper cup, which is a big deal, a collegiate cup between ASU and University of Arizona.
Speaker B:They're doing all kinds of youth programs and reservation programs.
Speaker B:And I have to say, you know, because of that unique history.
Speaker B:Oh, when I got down there, just, just absolutely stunning golf course.
Speaker B:Put it on your list, everybody.
Speaker B:AK Chen.
Speaker B:And they have great practice facilities.
Speaker B:They have night golf, by the way.
Speaker B:You know, they put in some courses.
Speaker B:They have a short course you can play at night when it's really hot.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's my tip for you all.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:I used to live in Arizona when I was going to college.
Speaker A:And even though I went to school in la and it does get warm there.
Speaker A:Okay, I want to talk about a couple, three of the people you featured in the book.
Speaker A:We'll just kind of start at the front.
Speaker A:I don't want to go over all of them because then people wouldn't have a reason to read the Book, but Oscar Bunn and very interesting story.
Speaker A:And then of course, tied up with.
Speaker A:And is it Haven Meyer?
Speaker A:Is that the way you pronounce K's name?
Speaker A:Haven Meyer?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I wanted.
Speaker A:I wanted you to kind of shed a little light.
Speaker A:I don't want you to give too much away to the listeners, but I want you to shed a little light on that because that kind of sets the tone in my mind for the rest of the book.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's really a great story.
Speaker B:You know, Theodore Havemeyer was involved in the founding of the USGA and that initial five course league, effectively that started the US Open, that included Newport, Chicago, Shinnecock Hills out in eastern Long Island.
Speaker B:And Havemeyer and his brother were they.
Speaker B:They kind of cornered the sugar market.
Speaker B:They were.
Speaker B:They were very big in.
Speaker B:And I think that would.
Speaker B:That was like the origin of Domino's sugar, which I think is still kind of a monopoly, but.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Anyway, Havemeyer was the head of the usga, and the second US Open was played at Shinnecock Hills.
Speaker B:Now, Shinnecock Hills is built on the Highland in eastern Long Island.
Speaker B:Absolutely beautiful site between Shinnecock Bay and Peconic Bay.
Speaker B:And it was drawing all the big names from New York, you know, Ford, Vanderbilt Roosevelt, Havemeyer, Bingham Morris, the list goes on.
Speaker B:But the Shinnecock were the ones that actually built the course.
Speaker B:They were the labor for the course.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And one of them was a gifted golfer.
Speaker B:So he not only helped build the course and he became a club maker, but his name was Oscar Smith Bunn.
Speaker B: at two of the early US opens,: Speaker B:And the story you're referring to was actually some people will, on your program will know the name John Shippen, less so Oscar Bunn.
Speaker B: But at that second U.S. open,: Speaker B:And when the Scots and the British arrived, they're thinking, you know, they're gonna.
Speaker B:They're gonna take the.
Speaker B:Take home the trophy.
Speaker B:In fact, it wasn't for a few years before an American won it.
Speaker B:And they said, well, we're not gonna play if a black man and brown man are representing Shinnecock.
Speaker B:They were.
Speaker B:They were.
Speaker B:They were narrow in their view, and I guess maybe they're probably a little afraid, too.
Speaker B:But anyway, Havemeyer said, okay, you don't have to play.
Speaker B:I'm just going to send Oscar and John Shippen out by themselves, and they'll go one and two.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So pick up your irons or go home.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And sure enough, he stood them down.
Speaker B:It's a great story.
Speaker B:I think it speaks to the best of our and the better angels of golf's nature.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Have him.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not about race.
Speaker B:It's not about religion.
Speaker B:It's about who can play golf, who's the better golfer, and in fact, Shippen.
Speaker B:It's a famous story that I recount in the book.
Speaker B:Shippen came in fifth, but would have won it except for he got an 11.
Speaker B:He was leading.
Speaker B:You know, he was tied for the lead.
Speaker B:And except for that 11, he probably would have won that second US Open.
Speaker B:He went on to play, I think, five US Opens and was a golf pro his whole life.
Speaker B:Oscar went on set record, course records in Connecticut, course records in Florida, taught in the Adirondacks.
Speaker B:Really interesting character.
Speaker B:And I'll go one step further.
Speaker B:I have to say the USGA really likes my project and have been very supportive.
Speaker B:And so I met Oscar's family, and he has.
Speaker B:Still.
Speaker B:Still has family on the reservation.
Speaker B:One of them is a fine artist by the name of David Bun Martine.
Speaker B:And so we got.
Speaker B:We put a call together with some folks at the usga, and I said, hey, don't you guys need a portrait of Oscar Bunn in the World Golf hall of Fame?
Speaker B:And they're like, yeah, we'll do that.
Speaker B:And so now David painted it and it.
Speaker B:And so I went down and presented in Pinehurst at the hall of fame August 17th this year when.
Speaker B:When the book rolled out and I walked in and there was the portrait of Oscar Bunn right there in the hall of Fame, I was so moved.
Speaker B:I have to say, it was like, first of all, it's a beautiful painting.
Speaker B:And secondly, you know, this is kind of.
Speaker B:It's overdue, that.
Speaker B:Oscar.
Speaker B:Oscar Bug.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Mark, we're going to take another quick break.
Speaker A:We'll be back.
Speaker A:We're going to be back and talk more about Mark's book, Native Lights, the Surprising History of Our First People of Golf.
Speaker A:And it's a great book.
Speaker A:I recommend it.
Speaker A:But we're going to come back and talk more about that in just a minute.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, it's jt.
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Speaker A:Welcome back to Grilling at the green.
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Speaker A:we want to thank the folks at Painter Hills Natural Beef, also a new sponsor that's been with us just for a while here, Squares Golf Shoes.
Speaker A:And as an older guy with funky feet, I can tell you Squares Golf Shoes has been helping me keep my feet underneath me.
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Speaker A:And also the folks at Grilla Grill.
Speaker A:So we're talking with Mark Wagner about his new book, Native Links, and another person.
Speaker A:Well, you got a couple of.
Speaker A:But one one person in particular, I think, Mark, that people who are into golf and have watched golf and stuff, the Sarge, Orville Moody.
Speaker A:You know, I'm kind of skipping ahead here a little bit, but he was a tremendous golfer.
Speaker A:And I'm not sure that when people were watching him, pardon me, on television, that they knew anything about his Native American connections, history, family, anything like that.
Speaker A:I don't think they knew that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've talked at length with a number of his family.
Speaker B:Spanky Moody Jr. Moody are still in the golf business out there in Lawton, Oklahoma.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But then famously, he took his daughter Michelle as his caddy, and I spoke with her.
Speaker B:Her son is an outstanding golfer now in the collegiate ranks, by the way.
Speaker B:I think he's at lsu.
Speaker B:Michelle Moody Blackman is her married name.
Speaker B:She was a great help in the book.
Speaker B:And that's a fascinating story.
Speaker B:They're all enrolled in the Choctaw Nation, and they're very proud of that.
Speaker B:And, in fact, Orville Moody's mother walked on the Trail of Tears, his mother, Sarah.
Speaker B:And so he honed his skills in the army, and that's why he was referred to as Sarge.
Speaker B:It's a great story because he was in Korea during the Korean War and where my father was, by the way, And a general took a liking to Orville Moody because he was such a good golfer.
Speaker B:And so he won the Korean Open, I think, three times.
Speaker B:There's a story in the book where Lee Trevino goes over and says, you know, play for the morale of the troops.
Speaker B:And he walks in and says, all right, I want to play your best golfer.
Speaker B:And so they send Sarge out, Orville Moody, and sure enough, he beats Trevino.
Speaker B:They become lifelong friends.
Speaker B:And Trevino said, a number of times I go over this in the book Native Links, that if Orville Moody could putt, he would have been known like Nicholas and Palmer.
Speaker B:You know, that he was such a great ball striker and all of his family said the same thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, that he was a great, great shot maker.
Speaker B:But he had the yips.
Speaker B:And so he, he, he takes Michelle as his caddy to help him read the greens.
Speaker B:And he goes on a tear, right.
Speaker B:Particularly on the Senior Tour.
Speaker B: But I recount how in: Speaker B:And yes, you're right, the media didn't cover his native background for a lot of different reasons.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But the Choctaw Nation held like a week long party for him, named him Indian of the Year.
Speaker B:And his mother rode in a Cadillac convertible, right, eagle headdress.
Speaker B:And Michelle said he hung the eagle headdress in his house.
Speaker B:He was very proud of it for many years.
Speaker B:Now he, I go over this in the book.
Speaker B:It's a fun story.
Speaker B:He couldn't be there for the parade, but he came back for the party and spent the night dancing with the Choctaw Nation after He won that U.S. open.
Speaker B:And then with Michelle on his bag and reading his putts, he goes on a tear and makes good money on the Senior Tour.
Speaker B:He WINS the senior U.S. open, I think twice later in the 70s, and I looked it up, he made about a half a million dollars as a golfer, which in the 60s and 70s was a fair amount.
Speaker B:Most of that came with Michelle on his bag, reading his putts and on the Senior Tour.
Speaker B:But it's a fun, fun story and again celebrates their heritage and which they, you know, they, they don't shy away from it all.
Speaker B:They're all, oh, yeah, they're like, yeah, we're Choctaw 100.
Speaker A:You've got a great picture.
Speaker A:Yes, you've got a great picture in your book of Orville and Michelle, she's standing up behind him, holding the flag, helping him read a put.
Speaker A:And it's really indicative to the story.
Speaker A:So I remember him, yeah, playing.
Speaker A:And I was in the 60s, I was a kid, of course, but I, I remember him playing and hearing that name all the time.
Speaker A:But I honestly, to tell you the truth, till I read your book, Mark, I didn't know that he was part of one of the Indian nations back there.
Speaker A:I, I, I didn't know.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, it's fun.
Speaker B:It's a fun story.
Speaker B:And again, the family, like all the natives that I've met along the way researching this book, they're all like, yeah, let's tell this story because it's a, it's a part of who they were and it's still a part of who they are.
Speaker B:You know, they, they're enrolled and they participate in the tribe and, and they're still also in the, in the golf world.
Speaker B:In fact, Spanky Moody and Junior Moody.
Speaker B:Junior Moody had to turn off his tractor to talk to me.
Speaker B:He's still out there gang, gang mowing.
Speaker B:And, and they said that Orville had a brother who might have been even better than Orville.
Speaker B:Lloyd Moody could shoot both left and right handed.
Speaker B:He could shoot par from the left and right side.
Speaker B:Now Orville Moody, you know, he had the, the army behind him and that, that's a story that, that's a thread in the book that, you know, to get off the res.
Speaker B:The army was a way out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which I'm making the argument in some ways that now golf is a way out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And in fact I cover a number of female golfers who have become PGA members teaching pros.
Speaker B:You know, not everybody is going to be as good as Orville Moody and win.
Speaker B:Get into that elite group, you know, but there's a lot of jobs in golf, there's a lot of support in golf from the pga, from the usga.
Speaker B:We need these people, we need particularly women and women of color to get up there and, and become teaching pros and all.
Speaker B:So yeah, it's, it's a feel good story all around.
Speaker A:Little side note here for you, Mark.
Speaker A:My father in law, he's no longer with us.
Speaker A:He was raised on the reservation up on the northeastern corner of Oklahoma and Arkansas.
Speaker A:And then he went in the army and he was only 16, but he served in Korea and then he came back and he always loved to play golf.
Speaker A:Now he wasn't a tour quality or pro quality, but it's just, just kind of a sidebar story there I find fascinating.
Speaker A:So he.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, that's right where, right around there is where the Moody's were from Lawton.
Speaker B:He made his home in the end in Texas.
Speaker B:But yeah, there, you know, it's, it's really kind of something that surprised me all along the way is how golf's been a part of their history.
Speaker B:You know, even, even before, you know, gaming, you know, there's a lot of great athletes.
Speaker B:I mentioned Jim Thorpe, he, he played golf.
Speaker B:He wanted to teach golf at the end of his life.
Speaker B:And so it's, we've uncovered a lot of, a lot of stories that are worth telling.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Another one.
Speaker A:And again, this is in the Oklahoma area.
Speaker A:Jimmy Squire.
Speaker A:Jimmy is an adaptive golfer, and yet he spends a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of effort helping kids and.
Speaker A:And native golfers and all this stuff.
Speaker A:And that's a pretty inspiring story.
Speaker A:When you found.
Speaker A:I mean, Orville Moody wasn't that hard to find.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I mean, if you.
Speaker A:You looked at that, I'm sure having written a few things myself, but somebody like Jimmy Squire or Walter Hopper, how do.
Speaker A:How do you find those.
Speaker A:How do you find those stories?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a great question, Jeff.
Speaker B:And again, I really appreciate being on your show and.
Speaker B:And hello to all your listeners and golfers out there.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's kind of interesting.
Speaker B:I. I mean, again, I have been trained as a researcher and a writer, you know, so it's part of my.
Speaker B:It's in my wheelhouse, so to speak.
Speaker B:And I just.
Speaker B:You just put your ear to the ground.
Speaker B: American Open last year, the: Speaker B:And when I got there, you know, I found the executive assistant, you know, who's running the show.
Speaker B:You know, she's up to.
Speaker B:She's doing everything right while the guys are out standing around.
Speaker B:And I said.
Speaker B:I said, micah.
Speaker B:Her name was Hummingbird.
Speaker B:Her nickname was Hummingbird.
Speaker B:I said, you know, are there any stories that I should know out here?
Speaker B:You know, what should I be looking for?
Speaker B:And she said, oh, yeah, there's a.
Speaker B:There's a really good adaptive golfer, Amputee golfer, common name Jimmy Squire from Oklahoma.
Speaker B:And so I sat and I waited, and sure enough, he wasn't hard to spot because he had a metal leg.
Speaker B:And Jimmy was also, just like everybody else in my experience, very, very eager to tell his story.
Speaker B:And because he's.
Speaker B:He's out there trying to help veterans and Native Americans who are struggling with physical disabilities to.
Speaker B:To golf, you know, why.
Speaker B:Why shouldn't they enjoy the golf, of course, just like everyone else?
Speaker B:And so Jimmy has devoted his life to this, and so we've become fast friends, Jimmy and I.
Speaker B:And, you know, his story is just amazing.
Speaker B:He's part of the second.
Speaker B:He was adopted into the Jim Thorpe family by Jack Thorpe, Jim Thorpe's son.
Speaker B:And so he's part of that Thunder Clan of the Sac and Fox, but he's also part of the Absentee Shawnee.
Speaker B:And, yeah, just a really inspiring story, you know, just rather than, you know, and you can imagine you.
Speaker B:And I know you mentioned it earlier, veterans struggle.
Speaker B:I mean, and imagine if you come home disabled from combat, you know, depression, addiction, these kinds of things are big issues.
Speaker B:And Jimmy's out there just saying, hey, golf can be a part of this.
Speaker B:You know, don't sit there staring at the wall.
Speaker B:Get out there and find the support you need.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Mark and I are going to take another break and we'll be back and wrap up the regular show and then I'll torment him a little bit on After Hours.
Speaker A:But you're listening to Grilling at the Green on the Golf News Network on iHeart actually, as part of it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hey, everybody, JT here.
Speaker A:If you need something to practice with in the inclement weather, try Birdie ball.
Speaker A:Go to birdieball.com check out the actual birdie balls, their packages, their putting greens, which I happen to have a couple of those and they work great.
Speaker A:Birdieball.com Foreign welcome back to Grilling.
Speaker A:It's green.
Speaker A:I'm JT today we're talking with Mark Wagner, Mark's new book, Native Links.
Speaker A:It's a cool book.
Speaker A:I had my own selfish reasons for reading it and I can list them off really quick.
Speaker A:One, my I'm a golf fanatic or I wouldn't be doing the show.
Speaker A:Two, have on my wife's side, I have a history with Native Americans in that and and out of Oklahoma, eventually moved to the to the west coast like that.
Speaker A:And I like to help as we talked at the end of the last segment.
Speaker A:Well, I like to help veterans a lot.
Speaker A:And those are just three of my long list of reasons.
Speaker A:And so I reached out to Mark and he was gracious enough to send me a copy.
Speaker A:And I recommend it out there.
Speaker A:So a couple of things I want to talk about a couple more people before we before we leave.
Speaker A:Probably the most notable Native American golfer now right now is Nota Begay.
Speaker A:He's a, he's a commentator for Golf Channel and NBC.
Speaker A:Probably not a lot of people heard of him until Tiger came around because they were college roommates and buddies and, and I don't care how you get there.
Speaker A:He got there and then he got some notability out there.
Speaker A:And if fine golfer and he does a lot to not only help.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker A:Know, his family, his Native nation, but kids and everything like that.
Speaker A:I think he's an inspiring guy.
Speaker B:He really is.
Speaker B:So he's seen the book.
Speaker B:His brother Clint Begay was helpful to me.
Speaker B:So where they hold the Native American Open is at Santa Ana Pueblo, Santa Ana Golf Club and Twin Warriors Golf Club in In New Mexico.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And that's where Nota Begay has his foundation as well.
Speaker B:So NB3 foundation is housed there.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:At the Santa Ana Golf Club.
Speaker B:And that's where he operates out of.
Speaker B:In all.
Speaker B:All these programs that are aimed at helping native youth.
Speaker B:Native young athletes.
Speaker B:He has the N Elite Golf.
Speaker B:He has NBC Golf.
Speaker B:He has a partnership with Nike and N7.
Speaker B:Interesting story there.
Speaker B:But, yeah, as you mentioned, he was.
Speaker B:He won two NCAA championships alongside Tiger woods at Stanford.
Speaker B:He won four times on the PGA Tour before a back injury.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Kind of settled his score for a few years.
Speaker B:And he then found he.
Speaker B:He sees that now as a blessing because those are the years when he started his foundation and realized he had real ability to raise money and to create networks that will create positives in our world.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So he.
Speaker B:But his golf.
Speaker B:His golfing is not done yet.
Speaker B:He qualified for the Senior Tour this year.
Speaker B:I don't know if you followed that.
Speaker B:Yeah, he did play the Senior Open.
Speaker B:So he's back golfing as well.
Speaker B:His back is resolved on some level.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But as you mentioned, he's just a charismatic guy who is a commentator.
Speaker B:People really like his commentator.
Speaker B:He's very clear.
Speaker B:He comes from the background of being a professional golfer.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, the sky's the limit.
Speaker B:Note Begay, and he's, in a way, been supportive of the project.
Speaker B:We're hoping that he writes an afterword for the next edition and it's in his hands.
Speaker B:As I said, he's.
Speaker B:He's got the book and his brother and his friend at Nike, Sam McCracken, are also, you know, whispering in his ear about how we can.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker B:Forward.
Speaker B:The book.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Mark, one last question for the regular show here.
Speaker A:Whenever you do a book like this, there's these evil people called editors, and they make you take stuff out.
Speaker A:I've dealt with them a few times.
Speaker A:Was there something you really wanted to put in the book but you couldn't, or maybe you saved it for the next edition?
Speaker A:Something that's really like.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker B:That's a really good question.
Speaker B:Yeah, the next book.
Speaker B:I'm really hoping so.
Speaker B:Back nine Press has been really great, really supportive.
Speaker B:The book, it's a handsome book.
Speaker B:It's well done production wise.
Speaker B:Jim.
Speaker B:Jim Satar is the editor there.
Speaker B:And he and I have a really good rapport.
Speaker B:He did.
Speaker B:He did take some things out.
Speaker B:There was.
Speaker B:I had told the story of how one of the Shinnecock families, who I cover in the book, actually, it's where the book begins, goes back to the great grandfather.
Speaker B:They've been the greenskeepers there forever.
Speaker B:And there was one named Elmer Smith, who was the father of Mike, who I interviewed.
Speaker B:And in fact, his grandson Matt is now the assistant greenskeeper at Shinnecock.
Speaker B: he way back to the beginning,: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And Elmer Smith.
Speaker B:Mike Smith was telling me Elmer Smith got an invitation to the wedding of Jackie O's mother.
Speaker B:She married one guy who was.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it was a funny story because it was a gold embossed invitation that Mike still has.
Speaker B:And Elmer, you know, as the groundskeeper, Shinnecock gets an invite to this, you know, font.
Speaker B:Font.
Speaker B:Shi.
Speaker B:Shi.
Speaker B:You know, New York society wedding at Shinnecock.
Speaker B:That was Bingham Morris III and Jackie O's mother, who was a beauvoir.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I told that story.
Speaker B:This is a great hook.
Speaker B:But Jim didn't.
Speaker B:Jim didn't think it was, like, related to golf.
Speaker B:So that's the kind of thing that I was eating up, that the editor was like, nah, this has nothing to do with golf.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And I think it's probably.
Speaker B:He's probably right about that.
Speaker B:You know, I just thought it was a great story because, well, the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The punchline was Elmer.
Speaker B:You know, I was like, well, did he go, you know, that must have been a great, you know, great night.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And Mike Smith's like, nah, he just filed that invitation.
Speaker B:He's like, I'm not going to that.
Speaker B:So, yeah, a few other things.
Speaker B:There was a.
Speaker B:There was a story about Orville Moody, actually, that Michelle told me that showed that demonstrated how good of a shot maker he was.
Speaker B:Where some of this is still in the book, but they were at a pro Am and it was going slow, and there was a pelican in a tree, you know, like 150 yards away.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And Orville Moody gets angry with the bird making all that noise, and he says, michelle, give me my seven iron.
Speaker B:And she says, no, I'm not going to give you the seven iron.
Speaker B:They're going to hurt the bird.
Speaker B:And he's like, no, I'm not going to hurt the bird.
Speaker B:I'm going to put it between legs.
Speaker B:And she's like, okay.
Speaker B:And she hands him a seven iron.
Speaker B:Sure enough, he hits.
Speaker B:He gets a golf ball that scares the bird off without it.
Speaker B:That's how good he was.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Mark, how can people find you?
Speaker A:How can they find the book besides, like, me calling you, calling you up and saying, send me one.
Speaker B:So, yeah, no, I really appreciate your time, Jeff.
Speaker B:I appreciate the support out there.
Speaker B:As I said, I'm really happy with the book.
Speaker B:I think it's a good read not only for golfers but people who are interested in history.
Speaker B:You can get it on Amazon Native Links Mark Wagner, the Surprising History of Our First People in Golf.
Speaker B:I have a website called Dr. Mark on Golf and there's also a website called nativelinks.net and I'm easy to find, you know, if you search around on the web.
Speaker B:Mark Wagner, I'm retired now from Worcester State University.
Speaker B:And then we also like you to support the press.
Speaker B:So if you're going to buy the book, yeah, get it from Amazon if you need to if you got those credits.
Speaker B:But also supporting it by going through the press back9press.com is, is helpful to an independent publisher like Jim.
Speaker B:So it's out there, you can find us.
Speaker B:And yeah, as I said, it's an enjoyable read.
Speaker B:And as I said, my next book is going to be going around playing all those courses and I'm looking for, I'm looking for some compatriots in that project.
Speaker B:So feel free to get in touch and say hey, let's meet up for a round at Circling Raven or something like that.
Speaker A:Let me know if you head out to the west coast, especially Oregon or Washington.
Speaker A:I'll be your victim.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:All kinds of native owned courses up there.
Speaker A:There are.
Speaker A:Anyway, we got to get out of here.
Speaker A:We're over on our time but Mark's going to stick around for after hours.
Speaker A:So again, Native Links Mark Wagner, great book.
Speaker A:You can find him online.
Speaker A:And we're going to get out of here.
Speaker A:So as usual, go out, play some golf, have some fun.
Speaker A:But most of all, be kind.
Speaker A:Take care everybody.
Speaker A:Grilling at the Green is produced by JTSD Productions, LLC in association with Salem Media Group.
Speaker A:All rights reserve.
