Mark Wagner, PhD - Educator and Writer - Afterhours Encore
This episode delves into the intricate history encapsulated in Mark Wagner's book, "Native Links: The Surprising History of the First People of Golf." We engage in a profound dialogue about the impact of Native American culture on the sport of golf, exploring the narratives that have often been overlooked. Wagner articulates the challenges faced by writers, particularly regarding rejection and the arduous process of gaining acceptance for their work. Furthermore, we examine the current state of initiatives aimed at expanding access to golf for youth, particularly within marginalized communities. This enlightening conversation not only underscores the importance of inclusivity in golf but also highlights the personal reflections of our guest, offering a unique perspective on the intersection of culture and sport.
Links referenced in this episode:
- paintedhillsnaturalbeef.com
- ictnews.org
- bostonglobe.com
- golfersjournal.com
- wsj.com
- thefirsttee.org
- usga.org
- pga.com
- native-links.com
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painted Hills Natural Beef
- ICT News
- The Boston Globe
- The Golfers Journal
- Wall Street Journal
- University of Maryland
- First Tee
- USGA
- PGA
- Jacobson Initiative
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
Welcome to Grilling at the Green After Hours, the conversation that took place after the show ended.
Speaker B:Hi, everybody.
Speaker B:It's JT and this is a special version of Grilling at the Green.
Speaker B:Grilling at the Green is brought to you in part by Painted Hills natural Beef.
Speaker B:Beef you can be proud to serve your family and friends.
Speaker B:That's Painted Hill's natural beef.
Speaker B:Welcome to After Hours here on Grilling at the Grain.
Speaker B:I'm jt.
Speaker B:This week, our victim of choice is Mark Wagner.
Speaker B:I don't know if they can actually see this.
Speaker B:Yeah, they can.
Speaker B:This is the book Native Links, the Surprising History of the First People of Golf.
Speaker B:Great book.
Speaker B:It's a great resource, too.
Speaker B:When you go in the back and look at all the.
Speaker B:What'd you say there was, 55?
Speaker A:No, it's 70.
Speaker B:70.
Speaker B:70 horses owned by Native American families and tribes and things and nations.
Speaker B:And it's a good thing, Mark.
Speaker B:This is the type of show where I ask you some stuff that's prob.
Speaker B:The most relevant to writing a book, but it's kind of fun.
Speaker B:Okay, so if you're ready.
Speaker B:All right, first question is, if you could play golf and then have dinner with a historical figure, who would it be and what would be on the menu?
Speaker A:Oh, that's a great question.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, living in.
Speaker A:Living or dead.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter.
Speaker B:We'll bring them back for four hours if you want.
Speaker B:If they're gone.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Well, there's a bunch, actually.
Speaker A:You know, I have to.
Speaker A:We were talking about oral Orville Moody earlier.
Speaker A:According to his family, Spanky Moody and Junior Moody, he was a great storyteller and very Had a great sense of humor.
Speaker A:So I think around with Orville Moody would have been great.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm a good putter.
Speaker A:I might have been able to help him with putting.
Speaker A:And I'm not a good shot maker, so maybe he could help me with shot making.
Speaker B:So there you go.
Speaker A:And then what would be on the menu?
Speaker A:I think Sarge was really, really, you know, from Oklahoma, you know, really into that, you know, that good American beef.
Speaker A:So I think we'd have a, you know, nice steak and with some cream spinach to go along with it.
Speaker A:So steak, mashed potatoes, and cream spinach with.
Speaker A:With some nice, nice red wine.
Speaker B:Maybe you might have to have like a pecan pie or something afterwards.
Speaker B:Slice of pie or something, too.
Speaker A:I love pecan pie.
Speaker A:That's my favorite.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's killer stuff.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What's the hardest part of your Job as a writer and, you know, is it the research?
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:I know once you get to the point where you're traveling to do the interviews, traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.
Speaker B:But it is kind of exciting getting to go someplace and do something.
Speaker B:But other than that, what's the hardest part of your job?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker A:I've always been, you know, I come from a family of writers, so writing is not really hard for me.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's hard when, you know, the hardest part is the rejection.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:You know, I sent the book proposal out to a number of places before it was accepted, and then I have, you know, different articles that I've been publishing along the way.
Speaker A:ICT News, the Boston Globe, the Golfers Journal have all been really supportive.
Speaker A:But, you know, at the same time, for every acceptance you get for an essay or a chapter, you know, there's three or five rejections.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I've been trying to get into the Wall Street Journal.
Speaker A:They cover golf, and I haven't broken through there yet.
Speaker A:So that's really kind of hard.
Speaker A:You know, it's hard to just take no.
Speaker A:Or just be ignored, you know, over and over again.
Speaker A:But, you know, like, you know, golf, you got to be a resilient, resilient person for golf.
Speaker A:So I guess I have some thick skin when it comes to that now.
Speaker A:But that is the hardest part.
Speaker A:The rejection or not getting your.
Speaker A:Getting your point of view.
Speaker B:Well, what part of your job brings you the.
Speaker B:The greatest happiness or joy?
Speaker A:Yeah, when I hear from readers, you know, like yourself, you know, like, hey, I really enjoyed this.
Speaker A:You know, I really enjoyed your book.
Speaker A:Or, hey, that was a great article.
Speaker A:You know, I think I mentioned.
Speaker A:Well, I didn't mention earlier, but I profiled a young golfer named Madeline Long.
Speaker A:Madison.
Speaker A:Madison Long, who is a Navajo and Coeur d' Alene golfer, Gifted young golfer.
Speaker A:And I profiled her a couple parts a couple times, and I think that helped her in her college search, you know, over the last year.
Speaker A:She's now a D1 golfer at the University of Maryland.
Speaker A:That gives me a lot of satisfaction when the mom gets in touch and says, hey, you know, that really helped Maddie.
Speaker A:And she's gotten a full scholarship now at University of Maryland, and, yeah, more power to her.
Speaker A:So, yeah, a lot of satisfaction when.
Speaker A:When, you know, you break through like that and then you help people out, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, Mark, if you could just, say, get a playing lesson from one of your golfing heroes.
Speaker B:Let's take Orville Moody out of this one.
Speaker B:But if you could, who would that be?
Speaker B:If you could play golf with any of the touring pros or top teachers, doesn't matter, celebrities, politicians.
Speaker B:God help you on the politicians.
Speaker B:But the point is, if you could play with anybody like that and play around a golf with them, who would it be?
Speaker B:And what would you kind of hope to glean out of it?
Speaker A:From what I understand, Lee Trevino, he was an entertaining guy.
Speaker A:And when I was young, I liked watching him and his battles with Jack Nicklaus.
Speaker A:I understand he's a great teacher as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I'd love to play around with Lee Trevino.
Speaker A:And he was exposed.
Speaker A:You know, he's a great shot maker.
Speaker A:You know, he's one of the great shot makers.
Speaker A:And he also had great length.
Speaker A:I'm still in my quote unquote retirement.
Speaker A:I'm trying to get a better, be a better golfer.
Speaker A:I'm trying to get a little more length, so Lee Trevino might be able to help me get it out there another 20 yards or so, you know, There you go.
Speaker B:I will tell you a funny story about Lee Trevino.
Speaker B:They used to do a.
Speaker B:A thing called the Fred Meyer Challenge up here.
Speaker B:It was a Peter Jacobson's deal and it was more of a they, they really called it Peter's Party.
Speaker B:It was like three days of just a lot of fun, but they always had a Pro am.
Speaker B:A lot of the big leagues around the Portland area would pay a lot of money to play in the Pro am.
Speaker B:And I was out there watching it one time, and here comes Trevino and he's got these four guys with him.
Speaker B:And I don't know if it was Lee or somebody, hit a pretty decent wedge shot into, you know, right on the edge, past the pin.
Speaker B:And so there was a, let's say a 15 foot putt, something like that.
Speaker B:All right, so Lee grabs his putter, three of the guys grab their putter.
Speaker B:One poor soul grabs his wedge and he goes up there.
Speaker B:First guy, putts comes pretty close.
Speaker B:Second guy, putts gets pretty close.
Speaker B:Third guy grabs it, takes his wedge, and Trevino steps in front of him and he goes, what in the hell are you doing?
Speaker B:And it's loud and it's in front of the crowd and everybody's kind of snickering.
Speaker B:And the guy said, well, I thought I would chip it.
Speaker B:And he goes, there's only one guy that can make that chip, and that's Raymond Floyd.
Speaker B:And buddy, you ain't Raymond Floyd.
Speaker B:Now go get your Goddamn putter.
Speaker B:I felt sorry for the guy, but the crowd was just howling, so.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that story.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, it was true Trevino stuff.
Speaker B:You know, Mark, we say a lot in these days about grow the game.
Speaker B:We got to grow the game.
Speaker B:And I think working in, you know, in the native culture and links and stuff.
Speaker B:And you've got great stories in your book talking about NODA and these different people helping kids.
Speaker B:But do you think overall we're really doing a good job?
Speaker B:And it's a loaded question.
Speaker B:I get it, but do you think we're doing a good job of growing the game?
Speaker A:That's a great question.
Speaker A:You know, I'm one of eight kids born in Paterson, New Jersey.
Speaker A:As I like to joke with the natives, they like this joke.
Speaker A:By the way, I always say, my tribe is po white from New Jersey.
Speaker A:You know, golf, my.
Speaker A:My introduction to golf was my grandfather sticks, which were too big for me, and we got to play on vacation up in the Adirondacks, you know, for one week a year.
Speaker A:So when I look back and I'm a volunteer at the First Tee now here in Boston, I look back on, I'm like, I really wish we had First Tee and some of these programs that were getting kids gear.
Speaker A:So I think there's some really positive developments over the last few years.
Speaker A:The USGA has a pathways program now, right.
Speaker A:As does the pga where they're, you know, they're getting kids gear.
Speaker A:First Tee is a really strong program as well.
Speaker A:Now, that said, the kids need access to the courses.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In order to really enjoy the game.
Speaker A:I mean, if you just throw a kid into onto a golf course, they're going to get frustrated.
Speaker A:It's going to be easier to learn basketball or baseball or something like that.
Speaker A:So I think you have to, you know, balance out the difficulty of the game with the access to the courses.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, as someone says.
Speaker A:Someone says in my book, or maybe it was at the first t program, nota Piguet and Tiger woods didn't result in more black and brown golfers.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That kind of, you know, hero worship doesn't bring kids out in the way that we would like.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:First he does.
Speaker A:And so I think we just need to continue to expand the resources available to young kids in urban environments.
Speaker A:And the courses have to also do their part and say, hey, we're going to dedicate a day to, you know, having the kids come out and play for free and having access, you know, that, you know, So I think it's a really good question Jeff, are we doing enough?
Speaker A:There's a lot of good stuff, a lot of good energy going on.
Speaker A:I think everyone's heart's in the right place, but, you know, it's access to the courses.
Speaker A:I think that really is the hurdle we add.
Speaker B:We have.
Speaker B:And I was just at a reception for it a couple weeks ago.
Speaker B:We have a thing out here called the Jacobson Initiative, which again, Peter and his brother David, and I know his brother David pretty well, they've set up a deal through the Oregon Golf association where it's like a pass.
Speaker B:You sign up for it and any kid that meets their requirements, which is simply an age requirement.
Speaker B:There are 69 golf courses around the state of Oregon that subscribe to this program.
Speaker B:The kid can play around a full round for $5.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:With this pass card.
Speaker A:Is that the youth on course?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then, and then the, the Jacobson Initiative, folks, they pay the balance.
Speaker B:They paid almost, well, 120,000 rounds.
Speaker B:So they paid the $5 for the 20,000 rounds for last year and then some other stuff.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's just way for kids of limited means, and I don't care what their families have, kids never seem to have more than five bucks in their pocket, if that anyway, and, and golf is not cheap, as we know, even with special programs.
Speaker B:So I think programs like that maybe could be modeled in other areas of the country.
Speaker B:And I'm sure some areas are doing it.
Speaker B:I'm not familiar with all of them, but something like that I think helps a lot.
Speaker B:And then there's usually on prescribed day, somebody around there to maybe help them a little bit, instruction wise or what have you.
Speaker B:Anyway, that's just kind of what's going on.
Speaker A:One more, I'd say one more thing about that though, is because Covid, you know, spurred a surge in golf, Right.
Speaker A:And I think the discussion now is among the PGA and USGA and some of the folks that I've worked with is like, how do we harness that energy and keep that going?
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:I think a lot of people took up golf just to be outside, but that, that translates into the young as well.
Speaker A:A lot more young people out there.
Speaker A:So we have to harness that and get them, get them good gear.
Speaker A:I mean, what I could have done with good gear when I was 11 or 12, you know, when I was out there trying to swing a full size club, you know, I went into soccer and I love soccer.
Speaker A:I did really well at it.
Speaker A:I coached at the college level.
Speaker A:But, you know, again, you know, I look back on my Life, it's like I. I wish I'd been a better golfer, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah, I would love to be a good golfer in high school, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a. I found a.
Speaker B:Well, actually coming home a few years ago from covering the LPGA tournament, the Portland Classic at the Columbia Edgewater.
Speaker B:Traffic was backed up, so I cut through kind of a industrial area and there was a big Goodwill store there.
Speaker B:But what I didn't know, it wasn't your actual Goodwill store.
Speaker B:It was kind of the end of the line Goodwill store where they ship everything for one last shot and after that it goes in the landfill.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And there.
Speaker B:And mark, there were three different, very long, like 12 foot long and like a foot deep of these big metal table bins full of golf clubs.
Speaker B:And they were, they were selling them for like 5 cents a pound.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I thought, and I've tried to tell people, you know, if you can find one of those stores, and every major area has one that has Goodwills or something like that around there, you know, you can go get there, you know.
Speaker B:No, they're not the top of the line Titleists, but to get started with, there's probably some good clubs you could put together out of that.
Speaker B:So, yeah, for, you know, 10 bucks type thing.
Speaker B:Anyway, one last question for you, Mark.
Speaker B:What would be your last meal if you were on death row?
Speaker A:You know, I, I gotta say, you know, you have my mouth watering now after this conversation.
Speaker A:And I know that you're.
Speaker A:You focus on, on barbecue.
Speaker A:I'd have to say, you know, Texas brisket, you know, would definitely be part of it.
Speaker A:You know, I'm out here in New England where we get some really nice scallops.
Speaker A:So I'd want to go surf and turf, I think, and do a, do a brisket with some pan fried scallops.
Speaker A:And, and again, you know, my favorite thing, if I were, you know, 10 minutes to live, a bowl of cream spinach, you know, would, would send me to heaven.
Speaker A:Happy.
Speaker B:Right there.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:I make a pretty mean.
Speaker B:I created a dish called tequila scallops.
Speaker B:So in my work.
Speaker B:So, yeah, maybe sometime we'll do that.
Speaker B:Anyway, Mark Wagner new book out Native Links the surprising history of our first people in golf.
Speaker B:I recommend it.
Speaker B:It's a great read.
Speaker B:It's done very well.
Speaker B:And Mark, thank you for putting up with me today.
Speaker A:Jt really appreciate it.
Speaker A:And yeah, hello to all your golfers out there.
Speaker A:And as I said on my tour through, we're definitely going to hook up for some golf out there on the native owned courses in Oregon.
Speaker A:And you can take me to your favorite spot as well.
Speaker B:I will.
Speaker B:We will do that.
Speaker B:All right, we're gonna get out of here, everybody.
Speaker B:Have a good week.
Speaker B:Go out, play some golf.
Speaker B:And most of all, be kind.
Speaker B:Take care, everybody.
