John Breaker - Birdie Ball - Afterhours Encore
This podcast episode delves into the fascinating evolution of golf culture, particularly in light of recent trends toward enhancing accessibility and engagement through innovative formats such as simulators and putting greens. We engage in a profound discourse with John Breaker, a notable figure in the golf sector, who elucidates the burgeoning interest in golf-related entertainment venues and their potential to foster a more inclusive golfing community. Throughout our conversation, we explore the implications of the pandemic on golf participation rates, revealing that a significant portion of the new players have remained committed to the sport. Additionally, we address the importance of educational initiatives in cultivating a new generation of golfers, emphasizing the need for programs that intertwine golf with essential life skills. As we conclude, we reflect on the multifaceted nature of growing the game, acknowledging the various approaches that contribute to this endeavor.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painted Hills Natural Beef
- Birdie Ball
- Infinity Golf
- Topgolf
- First Tee
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
Welcome to Grilling at the Green.
Speaker A:After hours conversation that took place after the broadcast ended.
Speaker A:Hi, everybody, it's JT and this is a special version of Grilling at the Green.
Speaker A:Grilling at the Green is brought to you in part by Painted Hills Natural Beef.
Speaker A:Beef you can be proud to serve your family and friends.
Speaker A:That's Painted Hills Natural Beef.
Speaker A:Welcome to after Hours here on Grilling at the green.
Speaker A:I'm JT and today we've got Mr.
Speaker A:John Breaker, who is the proprietor, the master task assignment person@birdieball.com.
Speaker A:he's a good guy.
Speaker A:He knows what he's talking about.
Speaker A:I've known John for several years now and he's always been a big supporter of this show and a lot of my charitable projects.
Speaker A:And I can tell you that.
Speaker A:Well, I've done two, two tournaments so far this year and I've got a third one coming up and I've already talked to Katie about it.
Speaker A:We're scheduled and all that stuff.
Speaker A:But people are absolutely fascinated to get.
Speaker A:They come up and they, they get a box and, and we open the box.
Speaker A:We don't take the, the putting green out because, you know, it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, just for.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Just pain in the butt.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But we, we open it up and there it is there and all that and, and the flags and stuff.
Speaker A:And it's like people are just like in awe of them.
Speaker A:And then you'll always hear in the crowd when they say, next up, we're going to be drawing for a birdie ball putting green like that.
Speaker A:And you'll hear a couple of guys kind of mumble, I've got one of those.
Speaker A:Or I had a guy at the first tournament this year said, I had one of those, but we moved and I had to leave it behind because we just didn't have room in our, in our new house or where we were going and go.
Speaker A:So I gave it to the new owner of the house.
Speaker A:And I was like, well, that was nice of you.
Speaker A:Kind of dumb.
Speaker A:But, you know, anyway, we were talking about these things.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:There's a lot of boutique.
Speaker A:I think we've got like four or five of them now in the Portland area.
Speaker A:And that's just over the last couple of years, you know.
Speaker A:And what is it?
Speaker A:Infinity Golf.
Speaker A:And I can't remember all the names.
Speaker A:And some of them are exist.
Speaker A:Some of the fun ones are actually in bars and restaurants that are kind of golf oriented.
Speaker A:And you know, they've got two or three putting greens in there.
Speaker A:They've Got a simulator or two.
Speaker A:They do all that.
Speaker A:I think that especially in places like the Northwest or in Colorado where, you know, it can get very inclement over four or five months of the winter, those things got to be going huckle de buck on that for people to go in and play.
Speaker B:We had a Westward, which is a little newspaper here that does rate rating, you know, rating best pizza, best.
Speaker B:This, that's not.
Speaker B:They just.
Speaker B:They just came out and rated the top 10 simulators in downtown Denver.
Speaker B:And I was like, there are 10 in downtown Denver?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, there.
Speaker B:I personally haven't been to one.
Speaker B:My daughter has, and she goes regularly.
Speaker B:You know, it ties back into sort of our birdie park concept.
Speaker B:You know, you've heard me talk about birdie park over and over and over until sick of me talking about it because I never get it done.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:Yeah, but, you know, I've watched it all happen.
Speaker B:You know, the topgolf guys came to me before it was topgolf and wanted to know if birdie ball would be a fallback position for them.
Speaker B:And so we've always known that birdie ball, you know, can be monetized in an entertainment setting and make it much more, you know, much smaller footprint and have a lot of fun and, you know, blow our inflatables up and have scoring and do this and that.
Speaker B:And so, you know, I haven't done it.
Speaker B:Haven't done it.
Speaker B:You know, I went to raise capital, you know, fell short of that actually, you know, the people I had working for me were actually terrible, and they.
Speaker B:They were incompetent.
Speaker B:And I'd like.
Speaker B:I'd like to have my $40,000 back, please.
Speaker B:But that.
Speaker B:That's not going to happen.
Speaker B:But, you know, tried to raise capital, they never could tell the story properly.
Speaker B:We always felt like we needed an animation to show, you know, like, what it looked like, and you fly into it and this is what the people are doing and this is, you know, and be.
Speaker B:And to be honest, though, I kind of changed over the.
Speaker B:Over the years, right?
Speaker B:I mean, you know, it was initially going to be, you know, 50 bays.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think topgolf has.
Speaker B:I think they can have as many as 80 or 100, you know, and then I was like, no, we only need 15 bays.
Speaker B:And then, you know, let's tie in some putting with it.
Speaker B:And, you know, what if we had some simulators, too?
Speaker B:And, you know, so now my thinking is, you know, you do have birdie park and you got the birdie balls and you Know, you have that area, and maybe that's only three or four bays, and maybe it's only two, you know, and then you have three or four bays of simulators, and then you have, you know, you have nine holes of, you know, putt stroke or pop stroke.
Speaker B:You know, everybody's got their own bias and they all seem to work, you know, so, you know, why not have a place that has a little bit of everything, you know, and, you know, so, you know, and it's because I, you know, I love all things golf.
Speaker B:And, yeah, I go to topgolf, you know, I go to these.
Speaker B:I love go, you know, I support everybody.
Speaker B:Everybody's got a little different approach, and there's some nuance in all of it.
Speaker B:But, yeah, you know, we're growing out of our building here in Evergreen, and that's sad because we literally had to look at some properties on the west side of Denver yesterday just because we need, you know, we need a lot more room.
Speaker B:And, you know, we're on top of each other here.
Speaker B:And I think I mentioned in the opening of the show I may even have to give up this room, which is.
Speaker A:Yeah, don't do that.
Speaker A:Don't do that.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's a great room.
Speaker B:It is a great room.
Speaker B:And, you know, but I'm so tight that I, you know, I'm looking at it right now, but.
Speaker B:But, you know, if we have to go down the hill, we call it down the hill because we're 30 miles into the mountains, you know, just west of Denver, and it's just unbelievable.
Speaker B:And I turn the camera, but I'll knock it over if I do.
Speaker B:And I'm just looking at this meadow and Jeff knows, and, you know, the other night we had, you know, 300, you know, elk in this meadow.
Speaker B:And, you know, we had literally a traffic jam and our parking lot was full and people just sitting here, you know, taking pictures.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But it's not perfect for making stuff.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:So we're, you know, we're going to maybe be forced to go down the hill and our conversation is, you know, what are we going to do with this building?
Speaker B:And, you know, and, you know, can we.
Speaker B:Can we own both properties and can we, you know, or do we have to sell one to get the other one?
Speaker B:And, you know, you know, and, you know, but I want to.
Speaker B:I want to turn this into Birdie Park.
Speaker B:And this room, for example, this room, okay, It's a nice room, but, you know, this doesn't fit a simulator.
Speaker B:It's a little shallow for a simulator.
Speaker B:So I've got a couple of other rooms I could.
Speaker B:I got a little crow's nest up here that I might be able to knock this ceiling and do a simulator, but I'd like to.
Speaker B:This is a nine foot ceiling and it's probably just a little low.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Anyway, but I want to maybe think about putting a couple of simulators in here in the building and then do a little putt, putt, putt out there and do some birdie bowl out the back and you know.
Speaker A:Where are you gonna put the bar in the barbecue?
Speaker B:Well, you're the barbecue guy, so I need you to come out and give me the consultation on that.
Speaker B:But yeah, on the deck.
Speaker B:I mean, we got these two beautiful decks out here and the bar.
Speaker B:Bar, you know, we'd have several bars.
Speaker B:What do you mean?
Speaker B:Bar singular?
Speaker B:No bars plural.
Speaker B:Yeah, a bar.
Speaker B:Bar.
Speaker B:No, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so, so we're anyway considering, you know, making Birdie park here, you know.
Speaker B:So anyway, I haven't done it, you know, and I'm going to stop talking about it until I do it, but.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:All right, all right.
Speaker A:Well, it's a, it's a great idea and I would be glad to come over and consult with you about food anyway, food and barbecue and all that stuff.
Speaker A:You know, one of the things that, that I think is, is so important and it kind of all ties into to everything in my mind, but my mind works differently or I wouldn't be doing this job.
Speaker A:Golf kind of goes and fits and starts, you know, or maybe that's the wrong way to say it starts and fits or something.
Speaker A:But anyway, you know, we, we had a big.
Speaker A: After the, in the early: Speaker A:Then things slowed down and we were kind of stumbling around there for eight or nine years and doing this and, and, and people's.
Speaker A:We got to grow the game.
Speaker A:We got to grow the game.
Speaker A:You and I could have a two hour conversation about that.
Speaker A:But then all of a sudden the pandemic came.
Speaker A:And I know you were on the show a couple times when that happened and you know, I live just a few blocks from a golf course and when the pandemic came, you couldn't get a tee time in the nice weather.
Speaker A:It was just full.
Speaker A:Well, all the golf courses around were full because that was one of the things that you were allowed to do.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Like that.
Speaker A:Well, the pandemic's over, but we still retained maybe what, 90%, 85%, 90% of that growth that we experienced.
Speaker A:People coming back to playing the sport in that.
Speaker A:Yeah, how can we, how can we get to a point where we're not always one yammering about growing the game?
Speaker A:It just becomes part of the business plan, so to speak.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:We're, we're getting kids and I know the programs that you've done, John, over the years, you know, for getting kids into golf early, it can become part of their life if they enjoy it.
Speaker A:Help this.
Speaker A:Maybe some of the schools get golf programs.
Speaker A:I mean, when I went to school, which was a long time ago, and I'm talking about primary and high school and that we had a golf program and we only had a nine hole course, you know, but we, I wasn't on the team, I was doing other stuff, but our golf teams did pretty good, you know, like that.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And I guess one of the things is I, I like first tee and I like all the other programs that the PGA and the LPGA and all that.
Speaker A:I think they're all very important.
Speaker A:But a lot of times I think also that sometimes, and I'm going to catch hell about this, but that's okay.
Speaker A:Sometimes I think that's more of a PR pitch than an actuality.
Speaker A:That's, that's the way I see it.
Speaker B:You think you're going to get in trouble?
Speaker B:I mean, I've been in trouble, yeah.
Speaker B:Big trouble, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, there was a time when I in public said, and this was because Joe Lewis.
Speaker B:Joe Lewis, yeah.
Speaker B:My, my mind just kind of went, you know, he, the ex CEO of the first team and it's.
Speaker B:Joe Louis Barrow was his life.
Speaker B:He didn't go by Joe Lewis, but Joe Louis Barrow, he, you know, I was a big donor to the first tea and of course I supplied a lot of stuff for the first tea.
Speaker B:So I had a lot of conversations with Joe and you know, in one of those conversations, private conversations, you know, he mentioned that, you know, you know, his job is not to grow the game of golf.
Speaker B:And I thought that was a really, you know, I thought that was a really candid thing to say.
Speaker B:And his job, he felt was growing the human being, you know, and that, you know, people are confused, that really his job is to grow the human being and that is growing the game is not really his primary focus.
Speaker B:And you know, I thought that was great and I, I agreed and we, you know, and, and I said, well, yes, and you know, I like Growing the human being too.
Speaker B:And you know, my business right now is I make the equipment to grow the game.
Speaker B:So, you know, and, and you know, the first tee had chosen a competitive product.
Speaker B:They had chosen Snag, which is a different product than ours.
Speaker B:It's a tennis ball and an oversized golf club.
Speaker B:And you know, it was a little simpler to understand, a little simpler to implement, but you know, my personal opinion was it taught a lot of bad habits because, you know, you put a tennis ball on a 6 inch tee or a 4 inch tee with a giant club and you hit up at it.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So, you know, that's, you're, you're doing something golf like, but you know, that's not golf at all.
Speaker B:I mean, golf is ball first, big ball earth second.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:And you got your, you need to be descending.
Speaker B:The blow is descending, it's not ascending.
Speaker B:I mean, there's one club in your bag that you ascend with.
Speaker B:But, okay, I mean, beyond that, you know, we are going to teach a lot of bad habits on that.
Speaker B:But that was my bias, you know, and, and in consideration for some donations, I was going to get a better chance at communicating that to the rest of the first teas.
Speaker B:But I made the mistake of saying out loud once at a, at a PGA teaching summit seminar that, you know, that the first tease job wasn't growing the game, it was to grow the human being.
Speaker B:And oh yeah, there was so much pushback on that because there was a first tea in the audience and they, they believe their game, Their, their chart was to grow the game.
Speaker B:And I, you know, I, I haven't been to the First Tees website lately, but it doesn't, I don't think it says, first of all, we grow the game of golf.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:In fact, at the time, you couldn't find it anywhere.
Speaker B:All right, so, you know, that's, so it's interesting that we've, we've always believed that that's the organization we created to grow the game.
Speaker B:And yet, you know, there was some, some disagreement inside the organization as to whether that really was what they were doing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And so, you know, I guess it's a function of the direction.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the first T, of course, is, you know, it's, it's a, it was, it was kind of created by the Masters and you know, all the organizations, usga, the pga, everybody's kind of involved in it.
Speaker B:And you know, that was set aside as, you know, and I think, I'm going to say, I think there were people in all those organizations that thought were growing the game that way, but really what it turned out, and I think it's actually remarkable and better, is that the focus became.
Speaker B:Were growing human beings.
Speaker B:Okay, well, all right, so what that means is we still have a void.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker B:What that means there's, you know, we need to have an organization that is growing the game and says, we're growing the game.
Speaker B:And it's about growing the game, okay?
Speaker B:And maybe that isn't nearly as.
Speaker B:As, you know, easily.
Speaker B:You can't raise money on that mantra probably as easily as, you know, and it's.
Speaker B:There's nothing more amazing than bringing a young boy or girl up on stage who's grown up in poverty and they are now full.
Speaker B:Full the pga, you know, educational process and becoming members and maybe being in the business and all those things, it's awesome.
Speaker B:And, you know, getting scholarships and all those things, you know, but in terms of just pure growing the game, that's a.
Speaker B:That's a more selfish ambition.
Speaker B:And, you know, selfish ambitions aren't marketable.
Speaker B:You know, it's not what, you know, is that really what people want to hear?
Speaker B:You know, why do we need to grow the game?
Speaker B:I mean, if you walked, you know, down the, you know, a homeless shelter and said, you know, we're here to grow the game, you know, you probably wouldn't get a lot of love.
Speaker B:I mean, but if you're here, walk in and say, we're here to grow people, that's a.
Speaker B:That's a lot better deal, right?
Speaker B:I guess, I guess I still, I guess I think we're rudderless there.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm sorry.
Speaker B:I, you know, I'm saying that I, you know, I'm going to take credit for growing the game.
Speaker B:I've grown the game.
Speaker B:I mean, I, I've sold 9 million birdie balls.
Speaker B:I've been in 7,000 schools.
Speaker B:I, you know, I.
Speaker B:I sell the stuff that I make.
Speaker B:I sell it to schools.
Speaker B:I sell it to the pga.
Speaker B:I sell it to the first tee.
Speaker B:I sell it to everybody.
Speaker B:You know, I'm in the business of making stuff.
Speaker B:You know, in order to make stuff, I got to create a market to sell the stuff.
Speaker B:And in order to create the market, so we need people trying to grow the game and out there in the schools and doing.
Speaker B:And they are.
Speaker B:And I promise that when I talk to the golf and schools director here with the PGA section in Colorado, they're growing the game.
Speaker B:There's no misunderstanding about it.
Speaker B:That's what they're doing.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And their Membership understands that, you know, but it's not, that's not a, that's not a joint effort.
Speaker B:That's the pga and it's not all the pga.
Speaker B:That's, you know, my section of the pga.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And you know, so, you know, again, you know, and can you manage it from the top and make it a pyramid?
Speaker B:And this is how we do it.
Speaker B:And you're probably not.
Speaker B:I mean, probably not.
Speaker A:You know, I think John, I think the person that actually caught onto that was Tiger Woods.
Speaker A:If you look at his learning centers, there's a lot of.
Speaker A:It's not classroom about golf, it's STEM programs, you know, and golf is part of that curriculum, but it's not the curriculum.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:He's getting the, he's getting the math and the English and all of that and helping those kids with that they're going on.
Speaker A:Some of them are continuing to play.
Speaker A:Some of them are achieving goals to play in certain tournaments and things like that.
Speaker A:But the most important thing was get those kids into school, help them.
Speaker A:A lot of them are underprivileged.
Speaker B:Did we get.
Speaker A:You're, you're, you're break.
Speaker B:You're breaking up.
Speaker A:I hope there are you okay now.
Speaker B:I'm back.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think you're back.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But the point is, is they, he.
Speaker A:I think he's done a remarkable job with his, with his learning centers.
Speaker A:You know, he's got a couple of them around.
Speaker A:I'd like to see more of that myself where they, they mesh in the golf with, you know, education that these kids are going to need to go forward in whatever their careers are, whether it is golf or engineering or medicine or teaching, whatever it is.
Speaker A:I like that program a lot.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, those are.
Speaker B:There's so many ways to skin the cat.
Speaker B:And so is there any one answer?
Speaker B:Probably not.
Speaker B:It's interesting though that now the National Golf Foundation.
Speaker B:So here's another fiefdom they are measuring now.
Speaker B:Not just golf courses play, but they now measure and there's a word for it off.
Speaker B:They don't call it off course or non golf or they do something.
Speaker B:They, they have a category now that captures topgolf and all the simulators and all this.
Speaker B:So this business and, and they're.
Speaker B:And they're including that in, in in the golf world, which I totally agree.
Speaker B:I think they should.
Speaker B:And so, you know, maybe this is something that helps.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, the ability to go downtown Denver and pick from 10 simulators and you know, nice food and beverage and that translates to More rounds on the golf course and more putting green soul because they're, you know, they're wanting to improve their game.
Speaker B:And this, that, and the other thing, you know, it's all good.
Speaker B:It's all good.
Speaker B:You know, I don't think any of it's bad.
Speaker B:You know, I don't.
Speaker B:I just think that when we try to own it, you know, that's where we kind of get in trouble.
Speaker B:And so, you know, I think we all have to just say, you know, this is how I do it.
Speaker B:You know, I, I hope you appreciate that and, and I appreciate how you're trying to do it.
Speaker B:You know, let's all do it and.
Speaker B:But I don't know that we can ever orchestrate it from the top.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't think so.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I'm not sure that's possible, honestly.
Speaker A:I'm just not sure that that's possible because the, the different organizations have such varied outlooks and what they like to see.
Speaker A:It's like I had somebody email me the other day and said, do you think the, the USGA is.
Speaker A:They were talking about something about the rough, you know, and this and that.
Speaker A:And I said, well, I think the USGA likes to have it, so if you lose your ball in the rough, you need a herd of goats to find it, you know, like that.
Speaker A:And so anyway, and that's not a slam on them.
Speaker A:That's just the way they like to make it, a very tough test for the golfers.
Speaker A:And so they've got a bit of a different outlook overall than the PGA or, you know, the RNA and all these different organizations.
Speaker A:John, it has been incredible to have you back on the show today.
Speaker A:I love this conversation.
Speaker A:And folks, don't forget Birdie ball.
Speaker A:Go to birdieball.com I'm going to be posting on social media.
Speaker A:This show will actually air this weekend.
Speaker A:So John and I'll talk after the show and get things organized and, and if anybody's paying attention, you can get a good, good discount on some stuff from Birdie Ball there.
Speaker A:John, thank you.
Speaker B:My pleasure.
Speaker B:Love being on with you, Jeff.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:I, I enjoy it very much with you.
Speaker A:Okay, we're going to be back next week with another edition of After Hours.
Speaker A:Until then, go out, play some golf, have some fun and be kind.
Speaker A:Take care, everybody.
