Gary Van Sickle - Golf Writer
The principal focus of this podcast episode is a comprehensive exploration of the current dynamics within professional golf, particularly the contrasting trajectories of the PGA Tour and LIV Golf. As we engage in a year-in-review discussion, my esteemed colleague Gary Van Sickle and I delve into significant developments, including the appointment of a new CEO for the PGA Tour and the notable shift of LIV Golf to a 72-hole format. We examine the profound implications these changes may have on the competitive landscape and the potential for collaboration, albeit fraught with challenges, between the two entities. Furthermore, we reflect on the broader context of player opportunities and the impact of financial considerations on the future of the sport. Our dialogue strives to illuminate the intricacies of these evolving narratives, offering insights into the intricate interplay of tradition and innovation in the realm of professional golf.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- PGA Tour
- Liv
- Saudi Public Investment Fund
- Birdie Ball
- Painted Hills
- Westin Kia
- Squares
- Snell Golf Balls
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
It's time for Grilling at the Green.
Speaker A:Join Jeff Tracy as he explores the golfing lifestyle and tries to keep it in the short grass for the hackers, new sweepers and turf spankers.
Speaker A:Here's Jeff.
Speaker B:Tomorrow's gonna be better than today.
Speaker C:Hey, everybody.
Speaker B:Welcome to Grilling.
Speaker C:It's Green.
Speaker C:I'm Jeff Tracy, if you haven't figured that out already.
Speaker C:Grilling It's Green airs on a multitude of radio stations here in Northwest and across the country.
Speaker C:And then, of course, it is on the Golf News Network every week and then all the podcast platforms.
Speaker C:Well, my good.
Speaker C:My good friend Gary Van Sickle is back with us.
Speaker C:With us today, we're going to do kind of a year in review, and I've got some great topics for Gary to talk about.
Speaker C:First of all, welcome from Pittsburgh, as usual.
Speaker C:And you're shoveling snow already, so that's a good sign for winter.
Speaker C:That'll motivate you for the spring to head to Augusta and all those places.
Speaker B:So that'll motivate me.
Speaker B:Motivate me to go somewhere warm a lot sooner than Augusta.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:So a lot of stuff going on, and I just kind of made some bullet points.
Speaker C:PGA Tour got a new CEO.
Speaker C:Liv is going to 72 holes.
Speaker C:The general consensus is the two shall ever meet.
Speaker C:I wanted to get your take on that.
Speaker B:Oh, I agree.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They are.
Speaker B:They disagree over one basic premise.
Speaker B:One of them wants live to fold up and go away, and the other, Liv doesn't want to.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So there's really no compromise on that point.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, the whole.
Speaker B:That agreement that Jay Monahan announced, I.
Speaker D:Mean.
Speaker B:Framework agreement, I don't know what that was supposed to be.
Speaker B:If maybe he.
Speaker B:I think the PGA Tour thought they could wait Liv out.
Speaker B:I don't know why they would think that because they.
Speaker B:They have an unlimited money with a Saudi public investment fund money.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:I think the PGA Tour is disappointed that LIV has such staying power, even when Liv, from a business standpoint, is probably not doing all that well.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:Some of their tournaments are well attended, especially the ones overseas, the ones in the US didn't miss.
Speaker B:But, you know, they keep going back to different sites.
Speaker B:Tournaments don't have identities.
Speaker B:They don't have names.
Speaker B:They don't really have sponsors.
Speaker B:Liv's kind of a mess.
Speaker B:But they have, they have money, so they're still going.
Speaker B:And, you know, it may yet catch on.
Speaker B:I. I think at this point, Liv should just get rid of the team thing because nobody cares.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:I think if they had gone and I Think we've talked about that before.
Speaker B:If they were to come out as a league of teams and have no individual tournament like we're used to, that might have been a little easier, where they're like Major League Baseball.
Speaker B:We got eight teams, we can make trades, we have drafts.
Speaker B:I don't know that kind of a thing.
Speaker B:But if they really wanted to be non traditional, now none of that's worked because they've got the individual thing mixed in.
Speaker B:And to get world ranking points, now they're, they're going to 72 holes.
Speaker B:And a funny thing is.
Speaker B:Liv is getting more like the PGA Tour.
Speaker B:Meanwhile, the PGA Tour keeps making changes to become more like live.
Speaker B:So they might wind up looking similar, but they're never going to be partners, in my opinion.
Speaker B:So let me.
Speaker C:I kind of flashed on something when you, when you were talking there, Gary, and you and I have probably touched on this in our previous conversations.
Speaker C:What would have happened?
Speaker C:Hypothetical here, but what would have happened if Liv came in and you took the Greg Norman element of poking everybody in the eye out of it?
Speaker C:All right, but if Liv came in and said, this is what we want to do.
Speaker C:We want to make a super tourist.
Speaker C:All right, PGA Tour.
Speaker C:You stay like you are.
Speaker C:We don't want to do that, but we would like your players to be able to come play in 10 events.
Speaker C:Stroke play, 72 holes, super tour.
Speaker C:We're going to put up $20 million at each event.
Speaker C:They have to have tour credentials to come play in our Tour, but we're going to take them to, you know, all over the world and do all that.
Speaker C:And that would take some of the financial burden off of the PGA Tour for the players.
Speaker B:If something.
Speaker C:I think, I mean, that's very hypothetical.
Speaker C:I get it.
Speaker C:But if, if something like that would have come in, it may have been more palatable to at least talk about it.
Speaker B:Well, at that point, if they didn't, if they didn't just completely balk at the concept, at that point it becomes, well, what's the price?
Speaker B:How much?
Speaker B:How much?
Speaker B:What's our cut?
Speaker B:Yeah, for the right money, the PGA Tour might have figured out some way to, to work that in.
Speaker B:But, you know, and the problem is with that big money, anything they do is going to minimize the PGA Tour events in some way, which the PGA Tour keeps doing to itself.
Speaker B:We got this elevated events that minimizes the non elevated events.
Speaker B:They had the World Golf Championships for a decade or so that minimized the non ones.
Speaker B:So that's not a new problem for them.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It'S about money.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:It'S about money, the right money.
Speaker B:They might listen to something like that.
Speaker C:But didn't the Tour figure out when they got the $2 billion investment or whatever from the, the sharks, if you will, the Wall street sharks.
Speaker C:They're going to want that money back with interest.
Speaker C:They don't do that.
Speaker B:They expect to return on their money.
Speaker B:That's why we're looking at Brian Rolap from the NFL now in charge, and he's looking to blow the whole thing up and turn it in turn to PGA Tour, which there has been nothing wrong with the PGA Tour.
Speaker B:They've built this empire by running things the way they have with 125 exempt players and Korn Ferry and all this stuff and 45 events or sometimes more.
Speaker B:And not every event's a big deal.
Speaker B:Now you've got investment guys in there and the PGA Tour has, in my opinion, unwisely matched the live purses and that's not sustainable.
Speaker B:These sponsors now are putting up 20, 25 million, which before they used to put up 10.
Speaker B:So Brian Rolap wants to blow this up.
Speaker B:And according to Harris English, there's talk about turning the tour into 20 to 22 events.
Speaker B:That sounds a little bit like that super Tour you just talked about, Jeff.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So you're going to put.
Speaker B:I don't know how they'll get away with this, but you're going to put, I don't know, probably at least half of your membership, the PGA Tour members.
Speaker B:Are you going to put them out of work?
Speaker B:You know, it's going to, it's going to go down.
Speaker B:I mean, you're going to have, you're going to have fewer Tour events, which means those guys get bumped down in the Korn Ferry Tour.
Speaker B:You'll probably downsize that.
Speaker B:But all those guys in the Korn Ferry Tour are going to get bumped down to whatever's below them, the Americas Tour, and they're going to bump off.
Speaker B:I mean, you're going to put, not that this was a huge deal, but you're going to put a lot of professional golfers out of work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Is all.
Speaker B:Well, you know, just play better.
Speaker B:Well, you can't play better if there's no opportunity to play anywhere.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's my problem with this whole thing.
Speaker B:It's become a closed shop.
Speaker B: going to lose, I don't know,: Speaker B:It's, it's, it's crazy that Brian's a football guy and he doesn't, you know, I feel like he doesn't want anything competing with his former employer either, which is, I could be wrong about that.
Speaker B:But I don't know.
Speaker B:The PGA Tours built a very successful empire by trying to match live.
Speaker B:They got in too deep financially and they had to bring in the sharks.
Speaker B:And now the sharks are telling them, hey, we got to run this for profit.
Speaker B:And so they're making changes.
Speaker B:You know, I mentioned, I was talking to Andy north, two time US Open champion, a friend of mine, because I used to work in Milwaukee.
Speaker B:I covered his Opens and we were talking about, you know, Phil Mickelson and his comment about the Saudis being scary, you know what's right.
Speaker B:And he said.
Speaker B:You know who's scarier than that?
Speaker B:Investment bankers.
Speaker B:Yep, that's exactly, he's been proven exactly right.
Speaker B:That's exactly what's going on right now.
Speaker B:The investment bankers are now in charge of the PGA Tour and the top players, the PGA Tour who are going to benefit the most are all behind that.
Speaker B:So I don't like any of it.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker C:We're going to take a break.
Speaker C:Gary and I will be back here on Grilling at the Green.
Speaker C:Just a minute.
Speaker C:Stay with us.
Speaker D:Hey, everybody, J.T.
Speaker C:Here.
Speaker C:If you need something to practice with.
Speaker D:In the inclement weather, try Birdie ball.
Speaker D:Go to birdieball.com check out the actual Birdie Balls packages, their putting greens, which I happen to have a couple of those, and they work great.
Speaker D:Birdieball.com.
Speaker C:Welcome back to Grilling It Green.
Speaker C:Want to thank, folks, John Breaker and his crew over at Birdie Ball there in Evergreen, Colorado.
Speaker C:If you need a little practice putting green in your house, in your backyard, in your garage, go to birdieball.com we're talking with the.
Speaker C:I always put GVS, GVS on my notes.
Speaker C:So I know who you are coming in there.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I want to talk a little bit about Fuzzy.
Speaker C:Fuzzy passed away.
Speaker C:He was 79.
Speaker C:Master champ.
Speaker C:He was 70, what, four years old?
Speaker B:74, yeah.
Speaker C:Did you have a relationship with him?
Speaker B:Not that much, really.
Speaker B:I mean, he was in contention a lot in the 80s.
Speaker B:I was covering golf for the Milwaukee Journal.
Speaker B:So he always, usually was one of the big names who came to play in the Greater Milwaukee Open.
Speaker B:But, you know, he's one of those guys who.
Speaker B:I don't know what the phrase is.
Speaker B:He's a.
Speaker B:He's a fun.
Speaker B:You know, he wasn't the world's greatest interview.
Speaker B:He's cracking jokes and stuff, but there was no depth, right?
Speaker B:He has a flipping comment for everything.
Speaker B:And then that was kind of it.
Speaker B:So when you're in, you're trying to dive in and get to.
Speaker B:Get to know him better, he's kind of like.
Speaker B:It wasn't there, but he's fun.
Speaker B:He always.
Speaker B:If he didn't have a gin and tonic in his hand, he was on his way to get one and.
Speaker B:Or a cigarette.
Speaker B:He was a fun guy that everybody loved being around.
Speaker B:He was hilarious.
Speaker B:He was a great player.
Speaker B:I mean, he kind of was the Fred couple story where he had a back problem.
Speaker B:And, you know, after he'd won the Masters in the US Open, he looked like he, you know, beat Greg Norman in the duel.
Speaker B:And then he.
Speaker B:Then he got.
Speaker B:Then he.
Speaker B:Remember the white towel.
Speaker B:Waving the white towel.
Speaker B:Norman waved the white towel and wing foot.
Speaker B:And then at Players Championship, when Norman shot like 25 under, Buzzy waved the white towel.
Speaker B:He was a great showman for golf and a really good player whose career was shortened by a back injury.
Speaker B:It's a sign of the death of the media and sports writing in America, where Buzzy passes and you look online and normally somebody will write a big long piece about a departed player.
Speaker B:And I remember the time so and so did this.
Speaker B:And we were in this bar, we shot pool or we played and, you know, he won 12,000 off Ray Floyd or whatever.
Speaker B:You can't find any of those on Fuzzy because anybody who was around for that either is no longer alive or is no longer employed.
Speaker B:The only people writing stories, and there's not many, are, you know, they can use Google Search and they don't.
Speaker B:They can't get access to all those golf magazines and papers in most cases.
Speaker B:So his legacy is not going to be remembered the way it should be.
Speaker B:I mean, he was a great player.
Speaker B:He won a Masters in the US Open.
Speaker B:They're both pretty exciting, obviously.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:It'S a shame that, you know, all the headlines about him were involved with his.
Speaker B:He's trying to make a flipping joke about Tiger.
Speaker B:At the Masters dinner.
Speaker B:And it came off as insensitive.
Speaker B:And that's all they can find on the Google search.
Speaker B:None of the stories about.
Speaker B:I remember the time Buzzy was at Quad Cities and hit eight iron and eight feet past the hole and zipped it back in for an ace that kind of thing.
Speaker B:So that's the way of the world now.
Speaker B:Everything that's come before has been erased.
Speaker B:And nothing that happens now is going to last on the Internet more than.
Speaker B:For the large part, it's not going to last long.
Speaker B:It's all even more fleeting than it was.
Speaker C:You know, it's a tough deal, Gary, when you go.
Speaker C:And I don't use AI much.
Speaker C:I use it to transcribe these interviews.
Speaker C:We do.
Speaker C:But other than that, I really don't use it.
Speaker C:But last night when I was looking at some stuff on my phone before I went to bed and I was looking up Fuzzy, and I had to.
Speaker C:It said, dive deeper with AI.
Speaker C:I said, okay, so I'll hit it.
Speaker C:I tried it like that, and AI had to think about it to find something on Fuzzy to, you know, embellish your point there.
Speaker C:It was like, it's not that hard, you know?
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker C:There should be tons of information about this guy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I went downstairs in my basement into some of my old scrapbooks from the Milwaukee journal in the 80s, because I know one of the first couple of Masters I went to, he shot like a 66 or 67.
Speaker B:The first day, it might have been 80 or 81.
Speaker B:And this was like, maybe the first Masters they had since switching the greens from Bermuda to Bent.
Speaker B:And Fuzzy just went off on a rant, I mean, a rampage, about the greens being way too fast.
Speaker B:It's just ridiculous.
Speaker B:It's not golf anymore.
Speaker B:Normally if a guy shoots 83, you just kind of ignore that.
Speaker B:When a.
Speaker B:When a major champion does that and he.
Speaker B:He's just shot a low round and he's leading the tournament, you tend to listen.
Speaker B:And I know I wrote.
Speaker B:I know that was the angle of the story I wrote that day.
Speaker B:I'm pretty sure that book is somewhere in my basement.
Speaker B:But I sent someone down there to find it, but I think they think they're.
Speaker B:They may have been captured or maybe.
Speaker B:So I haven't found that story.
Speaker B:But the point is, he wasn't afraid to say what he thought.
Speaker B:He was kind of a.
Speaker B:Smarter version of John Daly.
Speaker B:And course, they became big buddies.
Speaker B:Oh, sure.
Speaker B:Not sure that was great for John, but, yeah, Fuzzy, if he didn't have a.
Speaker B:If he didn't have a gin and tonic in his hand, he was on his way to get one.
Speaker B:Yeah, he usually wasn't far from the pack of cigarettes either.
Speaker B:So I'm sure that contributed to his, you know, I would say early demise, because I've already hit the 70 barrier.
Speaker B:So to me, that's early.
Speaker B:But if you're 45, you're going, yeah, 74.
Speaker B:That's pretty old.
Speaker B:But he was a great player.
Speaker B:Hurt his back early on, and that really limited his.
Speaker B:His achievements and probably his interest in playing golf because it's no fun to play hurt.
Speaker B:My son was just at the first stage of Key School in Southern Indiana, and Fuzzy designed a couple courses down there just north of Louisville, a couple of miles.
Speaker B:One is Covered bridge and the other one where he played at, I've conveniently forgotten the name of.
Speaker B:But you walk in the pro shop there, in the wall behind the counter, there's a big picture of Fuzzy.
Speaker B:And there's all stuff about Fuzzy.
Speaker B:And you go in the grill room there and there's photos of him with presidents and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker B:It was great.
Speaker B:And the best part was out in front in the parking lot, the first spot, there's a sign reserved for Fuzzy Zeller.
Speaker B:So I thought that was kind of cool.
Speaker B:And I would be willing to bet they leave it there.
Speaker B:Oh, I bet they will, too, because he really, you know, he deserves it.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:We're going to take another break.
Speaker C:Gary and I will be back on grilling.
Speaker C:It's green.
Speaker C:Just a minute.
Speaker C:Stay with us.
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Speaker D:But it's more than that because each bite of Painted Hills will make your taste buds explode.
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Speaker C:Welcome back to Grilling at the green.
Speaker C:I'm J.T.
Speaker C:we want to also thank.
Speaker C:Who do we want to thank?
Speaker C:Anybody in particular?
Speaker C:Sure, why not?
Speaker C:Well, Squares Golf shoes.
Speaker C:They're one and Snell golf balls.
Speaker C:I use them both.
Speaker C:Not that that makes me a good golfer.
Speaker C:It does not.
Speaker C:But they're comfortable and I like to Snell golf balls, so there you go.
Speaker C:Go to snell.com or go to squares.com and I'll tell you that.
Speaker C:So interesting thing here, a couple of things.
Speaker C:LPGA has announced that they're going to enforce their pace of play rule starting in March and April.
Speaker C:I think at the tournaments there.
Speaker C:That's a good thing because I've covered a number of LPGA tournaments.
Speaker C:They're fun to cover.
Speaker C:They're not as exciting at times as the LPG or the PGA Tour, but sometimes the girls get a little slow out there.
Speaker C:Not the stars so much as maybe the rookies trying to find their way around the course first few times.
Speaker C:But they are going to enforce that.
Speaker C:I think that's a, that's a good thing.
Speaker C:Think the, the PGA Tour will ever actually do that?
Speaker C:Enforce a slow play?
Speaker B:Well, the problem with the PGA Tour is the real problem isn't so much slow play as it is distance and how far they all hit it.
Speaker B:Yeah, the pga, the pace of play is a problem on the PGA Tour because they have nowhere to go.
Speaker B:Every par five is reachable in two, and there's at least now it's in vogue to have at least one, if not two par fours that are drivable.
Speaker B:So this is like being in a Shotgun Start with 30 foursomes instead of 18.
Speaker B:It backs up.
Speaker B:You can't go for the green in a par five until the green's clear.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:The three shot hole, that group would be able to move.
Speaker B:So it's not so much that the PGA Tour players are slow.
Speaker B:They don't like the fact that they spend so much time waiting.
Speaker B:And that's really due to distance more than anything.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're slow players, sure.
Speaker B:Why wouldn't you be?
Speaker B:They're training you to be slow because there's no place to go.
Speaker B:So I don't.
Speaker B:Look, there's only one effective way to speed up play.
Speaker B:The European Tour, when Keith Pelly was the head of it, they had a one year tournament, the Shot Clock Masters.
Speaker C:I remember that story about it.
Speaker B:But they had a shot.
Speaker B:They just took a shot clock out with each group.
Speaker B:And you know, the first guy, I think first player had 50 seconds.
Speaker B:And after that, each other player had maybe 35 or 40.
Speaker B:And they knocked 35, 40 minutes off the round.
Speaker B:I think the only two guys who had penalties both said, oh, I forgot, we forgot about the shot clock.
Speaker B:It worked.
Speaker B:You could, you know, you could, you were allowed one or two timeouts.
Speaker B:I don't know how it worked, but if you want to speed up play, you need to put it in black and white.
Speaker B:Here's the clock.
Speaker B:You can't you know, rules.
Speaker B:Officials on the PGA Tour especially are really have always been loath to give somebody a penalty.
Speaker B:You know, it's one thing, we all get fines, but they can afford that.
Speaker B:But a penalty is really.
Speaker B:That hurts them so harsh that it's affecting your status on the tour so that they're just not in position to do that to the players with whom they've become friends.
Speaker B:It's too subjective.
Speaker B:You need a shot clock so you can say, well, it's a yes or no thing.
Speaker B:There's no gray area.
Speaker B:You took 47 seconds to putt.
Speaker B:You only had 40.
Speaker B:And honestly, it would add an element of excitement.
Speaker B:Say a Phil Mickelson's on the Masters, got his contention.
Speaker B:The clock swing that you can hear the announcer.
Speaker B:The clock's winding down.
Speaker B:Phil's only got six seconds.
Speaker B:He's rushing over the ball.
Speaker B:He's lining up four, three.
Speaker B:He's not ready to.
Speaker B:He gets it off.
Speaker B:Oh, he holds the pot.
Speaker B:You know, it'd be like a buzzer beater and incidentally, basketball.
Speaker B:So I think not only would that speed up play, but it could cause some, you know, some excitement in there are going to.
Speaker B:Of course there's going to be.
Speaker B:There's going to be glitches.
Speaker B:They're going to be problems.
Speaker B:What happens when fans are yelling and disturbing you?
Speaker B:Do you get extra time?
Speaker B:Yeah, they'll work it out.
Speaker B:But I.
Speaker B:When somebody does something that actually increase improves the pace of play, that doesn't involve a hard and fast shot clock with each group.
Speaker B:You know, I don't.
Speaker B:I don't think anything's really going to make a big difference unless they go all the way in on that.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:No, I get it.
Speaker C:Also, I was going to tell you the.
Speaker C:We've talked about this before a few times, Gary, that LPGA now has all 26 of their tournaments televised.
Speaker C:Instead of just hit and miss, you know, like that.
Speaker B:Isn't it funny?
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It wasn't really that long ago when the PGA Tour had tournaments that weren't on TV.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:Early 90s.
Speaker B:I remember the one in Callaway Gardens, Georgia, that was never on.
Speaker B:And some of those fall events weren't on tv.
Speaker B:Can you.
Speaker B:Isn't it amazing how far, how far it's come?
Speaker C:Yeah, it is.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:I want to get your take on the Ryder Cup.
Speaker C:We hadn't really talked about that after the fact.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker C:I was a tremendous Sunday.
Speaker C:It was entertaining Sunday.
Speaker C:You know, sitting 3,000 miles away in my living room watching it.
Speaker C:I don't know what the Friday Saturday deal was.
Speaker C:If it was a casual spectator, they probably would have said, what's with the US Team?
Speaker C:They don't seem to care.
Speaker C:You know, they didn't have any enthusiasm.
Speaker C:And then when they got their ears pinned back against the wall, then they seemed to get some fire.
Speaker C:And that did make good television and a fun Sunday type thing.
Speaker C:What's your take?
Speaker B:They were.
Speaker B:They were just that close to pushing it all the way to the brink.
Speaker B:I mean, if.
Speaker B:If Russell Henley makes his putt and then.
Speaker B:Shane Lowry misses his, or even if I was, I forget the situation.
Speaker B:If they retired, if Henley was one up, but if Henley makes his putt now, the Americans are still alive and there's, what, three matches left.
Speaker B:And I think the Americans were up in at least one.
Speaker B:They had a chance of making, pulling off the greatest, craziest comeback ever.
Speaker B:But the real problem is, yeah, they dug themselves such a deep hole.
Speaker B:It seemed like Americans were victims of on the job training.
Speaker B:You had Keegan Bradley and guys who.
Speaker B:Hadn'T really been in charge of a Ryder cup team.
Speaker B:I mean, they sent Henley and.
Speaker B:Scheffler out and those guys an alternate shot, and they.
Speaker B:They had him playing in the wrong order, as they admit.
Speaker B:So that second day, they changed.
Speaker B:The hole suited Henley.
Speaker B:The AD holes suited Henley better than.
Speaker B:I forget the detail.
Speaker B:But, you know, that was a.
Speaker B:That was a rookie mistake.
Speaker B:You know, Keegan Bradley thrust into this kind of.
Speaker B:You feel like the PGA of America was grasping at straws.
Speaker B:Why would you take a guy who's still a current player and throw him in?
Speaker B:And a lot of people think, well, did you watch the Netflix documentary where he was shown as an outsider and he wasn't picked because of that?
Speaker B:And he was crushed, and he was so patriotic.
Speaker B:And it was kind of like, well, let's look at that guy.
Speaker B:He cares.
Speaker B:Well, he's still a current player, and frankly, he should have picked himself.
Speaker B:But I don't.
Speaker B:That wasn't.
Speaker B:You know, if you look at the lineup, American team just wasn't as good.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:If you didn't bet on the Europeans going into that, you're out of your mind.
Speaker B:That was Russell Henley, number three player in the world.
Speaker B:You know, he's a very nice guy and a nice little game, but he's not number three.
Speaker B:And the Ryder cup is a putting contest, assuming everybody's is kind of on their game, which there's always two guys per team.
Speaker B:Lauren.
Speaker B:But it's a putting contest.
Speaker B:Which lineup had better Putters.
Speaker B:I don't think it was a contest.
Speaker C:Now.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Keegan Bradley isn't the world's greatest putter either, so I don't know that he was the answer.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:If he had, if he had not been the coach, he definitely would have been on the team, the captain.
Speaker B:So I just think the best team won, and I don't.
Speaker B:I'm surprised they made it as close as they did, but I don't think Keegan had the time or got enough input or whatever from guys to.
Speaker B:It seemed like they made a couple of mistakes on.
Speaker B:You know, I had Lanny Watkins on my podcast, the Golf Show 2.0, and he couldn't believe the course set up.
Speaker B:It's like, that's not what we used to do and that kind of thing.
Speaker B:So the course set up in some of the pairings and how they played an alternate shot, he questioned.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:But I think ultimately you look at it like Europeans were better putters.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Did, did you think that.
Speaker B:Did you think the Americans were the favorites or were going to be the favorites?
Speaker B:I mean, it's hard to remember what I thought beforehand, but I did think, this is not a great American lineup.
Speaker C:I thought going in that we had an.
Speaker C:An even chance.
Speaker C:That's what I thought.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:After the first day, I wouldn't have told you that even close, you know, and we always seem, you know, as much as, you know, Paul McGinley's on TV or whoever, and, and, and the Europeans live for the Ryder cup, you know, as a team.
Speaker C:They, they, they are this cohesive.
Speaker C:Mental team that they, they, they really get into it, and we don't seem to worry about it until about, yeah, three months before the event.
Speaker C:And then we go.
Speaker B:They are united and they're bonded by their.
Speaker B:I don't know what the words are there.
Speaker B:These are going to be too hard.
Speaker B:But I would say their dislike and their jealousy of America and the PGA Tour and all the money, you know, I mean, they're all playing over here for the most part.
Speaker B:But you go back to the 80s and 90s, Americans fly over in a Concorde, and Tony Jacklin, they're.
Speaker B:They're flying coach to get over here, and they felt like second class.
Speaker B:And Tony Jackson's the guy who said, you've got to cough up the money.
Speaker B:We're not going to do.
Speaker B:We're not.
Speaker B:We're going to be on a equal footing.
Speaker B:But they've always, you know, Europeans in general are envious of the amount of money and the wide open space.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're, you know, we're like the Yankees and they're the underdog and they're, they're united by.
Speaker B:Whatever the, the history of the PGA Tour.
Speaker B:And we don't have that.
Speaker B:And we're, they're, yeah, our guys show up.
Speaker B:Another thing I'll throw out there, Tiger woods said this.
Speaker B:So the only reason I think it's worthwhile, he says they spent the European team always spends more time practicing putting on the, to the pins because they know where the pins are going to be than we do.
Speaker B:And he says, I know that because we play behind them in practice rounds and was standing there waiting around all day.
Speaker B:Well, what happens every Ryder Cup?
Speaker B:The first two days, the Europeans make everything and the Americans don't.
Speaker B:And the third day, now the Americans have got the greens figured out.
Speaker B:So if it happened once, you go, oh, it's a fluke.
Speaker B:It happens every time.
Speaker B:Tiger woods of all people pointed this out.
Speaker B:Why wouldn't we listen to him?
Speaker B:He knows, he knows a couple of things.
Speaker B:So there's a combination of factors there.
Speaker B:I mean, but you're right.
Speaker B:They live and the Europeans live and die with this thing.
Speaker B:And for the Americans, it's like, yeah, let's go try to win.
Speaker B:But if we don't, oh, well, I got a corporate outing next week for 12 grand, so I don't have to.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:We're going to take a break.
Speaker C:Gary and I are going to be back.
Speaker C:Wrap up this part of the show.
Speaker C:You're listening to Grilling at the Green on Golf News Network, among other places.
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Speaker C:Welcome back to grilling.
Speaker B:It's green.
Speaker C:Today I'm happy to announce that friend of the show, friend of mine, Gary Van Sickle is back with us.
Speaker C:I think you've made now officially made the most appearances on the show of any guest.
Speaker C:That's a good thing.
Speaker B:That's a good thing.
Speaker B:That's like, that's like the guy who's been let on out on bail the most times.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker C:Well, at least we got cash bail here.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:You know, political joke there.
Speaker C:You think Tiger is going to play on the Champions Tour?
Speaker B:I. I don't know.
Speaker B:First of all, I don't know if he's ever going to play again.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I mean, he doesn't tell us what's going on.
Speaker B:He admitted just yesterday he's got the Tiger world hero thing, whatever that thing is, down in the Bahamas or wherever they are.
Speaker C:Right, right.
Speaker B:All he said was my rehab from this latest back surgery is not going as fast as he'd like.
Speaker B:He and Charlie are not going to play in the PNC Championship.
Speaker B:The father son, eventually.
Speaker B:So look, how many back fusions, how many discectomies can you.
Speaker B:Can a guy have personally?
Speaker B:I mean, again, I don't know the details, but once he.
Speaker B:All I know is Lanny Watkins told me once after his first back diskectomy.
Speaker B:Dissect me.
Speaker B:How do you.
Speaker B:Can't pronounce that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Disc event.
Speaker B:He said once you have a fusion, then the pressure simply goes up one notch on the spine and.
Speaker B:And now the pressure's on the next one and it's going to break.
Speaker B:And then, you know, you can't keep doing that unless you wind up want to wind up like Bobby Jones in a wheelchair.
Speaker B:And that wasn't what Jones had.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:I worry for Tiger's overall health if he continues to play golf with these back fusions.
Speaker B:So if he tomorrow said, I'm done, I just can't play physically, I'd go, well, I'm not surprised and I'm glad he's not going to risk it.
Speaker B:But he's always felt like he's Superman even though he knows he's not.
Speaker B:And so what's in it for him to play the Senior Tour?
Speaker B:I don't think much and not a big.
Speaker B:Just said earlier this week or last week that Tiger, I think Tiger's really.
Speaker B:What's keeping Tiger going is the number 83.
Speaker B:He's tied with Sam Snead for 82 wins.
Speaker B:And you can debate whether those totals are legit for either one of those guys.
Speaker B:Well, mostly Sneed actually probably has more, but Tiger would like to get one more and pass Sneed and be the all time guy.
Speaker B:Well, he can't do that playing on the Senior Tour.
Speaker B:No, does not have it.
Speaker B:Does not have his finger on the pulse of Tiger woods probably more so than anybody else, but I don't, I don't know.
Speaker B:I think it comes down to Tigers fragility.
Speaker B:Will he, will they give him a cart?
Speaker B:Would he take one on the PGA Tour?
Speaker B:Would it matter?
Speaker B:Does he have to go play, you know, like the Brian Gay Tour when you're older?
Speaker B:Go play Hilton Head and Colonial, the short course.
Speaker B:Is that all he can do?
Speaker B:I mean, he's gone a couple years without hardly even hitting a shot on a PG Tour.
Speaker C:Eventually, right?
Speaker B:He's going to come back and win something.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Even though he's Tiger Woods, I don't know how realistic that is.
Speaker B:Plus, he's turning 50.
Speaker B:How many guys in the history of golf have putted well to the age of 50 or beyond the age of 50?
Speaker B:You know, Hale Irwin and Steve Stricker and Jack Nicklaus are.
Speaker B:The guys I can name.
Speaker C:That's about it.
Speaker C:I will tell you, I agree with you on your analysis of the back issues because I've had that surgery and where I had the surgery is great.
Speaker C:But now, as time goes on and it's been nine years since I had that surgery, okay.
Speaker C:Now the vertebrae above it are.
Speaker C:I can start to feel them, if you know what I mean.
Speaker C:They rear their ugly head once in a while at the end of the day and you go, ah, okay.
Speaker C:They didn't tell me.
Speaker C:They didn't tell me that part.
Speaker B:And that's in addition to his knees and the, the ankle that he had all Smith, that's ankle that's fused.
Speaker B:And he has to do all these, I mean, everything he has to do, apparently each day just to compete in a real tournament is beyond belief.
Speaker B:So I don't, I don't know.
Speaker B:Again, I.
Speaker B:If he shows up for Senior Tour, they're going to have to be paying him big money.
Speaker B:And even then, I don't, you know, does, does he really want to go play in the Cologuard Championship or.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I doubt it.
Speaker B:I, I do.
Speaker B:I mean, really, I asked the average person to name a senior, senior event that's not one of their majors.
Speaker B:I don't think anybody can do it.
Speaker B:They have such a low profile.
Speaker B:Tiger would raise that.
Speaker B:It'd be the best thing that happened to the PG to, to the senior circuit in years.
Speaker B:But I don't know why Tiger would be interested in that.
Speaker B:Accept that he likes competition, he likes winning, and maybe that's the only place he can still do it.
Speaker B:But I'm still at the point where I don't Know if he can play.
Speaker C:He might come out and do something.
Speaker C:If Stricker or Fury, because he likes both those guys, if they were the unofficial official host of the events or something, he might do it for them.
Speaker C:I'm just throwing that out there.
Speaker C:He might.
Speaker B:Well, you know, and he can take a cart on in senior golf, so there's that.
Speaker B:I think, I think he would, you know, I wouldn't say ceremonial golfer, but I think he would be a part time.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I think first we have to, I mean, we saw him swinging a club in tgl.
Speaker B:He was.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:First we have to style establish whether this guy can still play golf.
Speaker B:And we, we don't know that.
Speaker B:So I don't know.
Speaker B:It'd be, it'd be great if he did.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:The money, you know, I just, there's not much in it for Tiger other than the gets to hang out with his buddies and, and still compete.
Speaker B:And I'll say.
Speaker B:And I've only competed in amateur golf at a very low level and now I'm at a low level in senior golf and I'm probably done competing there.
Speaker B:But there's nothing is nothing is nothing beats competition.
Speaker B:No, imagine doing it for money and for fame and for, in front of people.
Speaker B:You know, we pay, we play amateur events and there's nobody out there, probably not even your family because you know you're not going to win.
Speaker B:But it's fun to compete.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:When you're an athlete that's.
Speaker B:You want to keep doing that.
Speaker C:Well, there I'm kind of like you that.
Speaker C:I would love to see him compete again.
Speaker C:But knowing what we know, which is probably about that much about the routine he has to go through and every, all the trials and tribulations to keep him just putting one foot in front of the other one, you know, metaphorically.
Speaker C:I'm like, yeah, man, your Bobby Jones analogy is really good.
Speaker C:You don't want to be in a wheelchair.
Speaker C:You're turning 50 by the time you're in the 60s and 70s like Tracy and Van Sickle, you don't want to be doing that two wheel deal with your hands, you know.
Speaker C:So, yeah, that's where I'm at.
Speaker C:Okay, last thing, real quick.
Speaker B:We saw him at the Masters and the last day he got paired with Neil Shipley, this is what, two years ago?
Speaker B:And he was sweating profusely.
Speaker B:I mean, he, you know, he just barely made the cut in the number.
Speaker B:And then the weekend, he almost really couldn't play.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I almost thought he was going to withdraw, but I felt like maybe he showed up Sunday because he was playing with Neil Shipley, U.S. amateur champion.
Speaker B:And maybe felt he owed it to him.
Speaker B:But he looked.
Speaker B:I just remember looking on the.
Speaker B:On the six greenie at a putt for par, and he was back.
Speaker B:The green he's got.
Speaker B:As he's pulling his hat down, you can see he's going like, God, I don't know if I can finish this round.
Speaker B:I don't know what am I doing here?
Speaker B:I mean, he didn't.
Speaker B:That's just.
Speaker B:He was stoic, but that was.
Speaker B:I was imagining that was what he was thinking because it was killing him to be out there, and he couldn't play.
Speaker B:He couldn't play well, and he didn't enjoy it.
Speaker B:But he got around 18 holes, and I know that'll be around that Neil Shipley will never forget.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And when they left Augusta national, they put him on a hand truck and wheeled him right onto the plane.
Speaker C:That's all right.
Speaker C:Gary Van Sickle.
Speaker C:Gary's going to stick around for after hours, so I got some really steamy questions for him there.
Speaker C:But thank you, my friend, for being on the regular show.
Speaker C:All right, we'll be back next week, and then right after Christmas, we're going to take a couple weeks off, so give you that heads up.
Speaker C:And until then, go out, play some golf, have some fun.
Speaker C:But most of all, be kind.
Speaker C:Take care, everybody.
Speaker A:Grilling at the Green is produced by JTSD Productions, llc in association with Salem Media Group.
Speaker A:All rights reserve.
